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Something new - Starting problem
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=19243		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Tinman [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Something new - Starting problem
Haven't heard of anyone else with this issue so here goes. On about 4-5 occasions, by wifes libby has been hard to start. At first, from her description, I though it was lack of power/current to the starter. But on one occasion I was a few block away and drove over. When I cranked it, it has plenty of current and turned over fine, but no fire (to brought a gasser term). It seemed like there was no fuel getting in the cylinders. I tried it a few times and then it cranked up fine. I drove it to the dealership and they ran the codes. NO codes, NO MIL. It ran great, as usual. Matter of fact we swapped vehicles and I flogged it going home and it ran like a champ. With no codes and it not doing it now, it would be useless to take it in to the dealer. My thoughts: Sounds like no fuel - if filter where clogged, it won't run well. If CP3 where not delivering fuel, I'd think there would be a code. If one injector where bad, it run but not good. I figure something is losing communication with something else and the injectors aren't firing. If there is lost communication, then that could explian the no code. The one other thing I thought of was the cam and crank postion sensors. There was a problem with some of the earlier CR Cummins where the cam and crank sensor parameters where to tight and it took a while for the ECM to reconcile the two with resulting long cranking times. They reflashed these trucks for looser parameters so it won't take so long to reconcile them and, hence, quicker cranking. I don't even know if the CRD works this way, just a thought. I'm gonna snoop around for loose sensors when I get a few mintues. If it keeps up, I may by a OBB reader. After a few tries it has always started a run fine, so I figure we'll just have to wait until it gets worse. Any ideas??
Author:  Tinman [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Air in fuel?
About an hour after posted this question, I was out riding my bike and it hit me like bolt of lightning. Air in the fuel. That would cause this. As soon as it gets purged out, it cranks and this won't necessarily throw codes. So if this is it, where would it be getting air in the line and not leaking fuel?
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Air in fuel?
Tinman wrote:
About an hour after posted this question, I was out riding my bike and it hit me like bolt of lightning. Air in the fuel. That would cause this. As soon as it gets purged out, it cranks and this won't necessarily throw codes. So if this is it, where would it be getting air in the line and not leaking fuel?


Check all hose connection and and leakage at the fuel heater at filter head.
Author:  Ranger1 [ Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
It's happened to me 3 times now in the last few weeks, all during warm days, at temperatures of 75F or above. All 3 times occurred under similar conditions. It's never on cold start, it's always after a drive long enough to reach operating temperature, then a stop of about 30 or 40 minutes where engine heat soak occurs, then it cranks for several seconds, plenty of cranking speed, but it feels as if it isn't getting any fuel. It happened to me today when I left the restaurant at lunch.

I checked the fuel filter for air, but no air, and no signs of air in the clear pre-filter either. It starts and runs very well, but takes far longer than normal to start. This is something I've not experienced before. It has only happened once each trip so far. An immediate restart or another stop and heat soak period after a hard start does not cause a repeat incident for me to date.

Its our first summer-time temperatures on the ULSD - we may be experiencing something new. I never experienced this condition last summer when temps were 102F and sometimes higher.

Never a dull moment with this beast.
Author:  CTKJ [ Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just had mine in the dealer today for this same problem, mine is doing this constantly. They said they ordered a fuel pressure control valve for it.

We'll see!!
Author:  oldnavy [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:52 am ]
Post subject: 
CTKJ wrote:
Just had mine in the dealer today for this same problem, mine is doing this constantly. They said they ordered a fuel pressure control valve for it.

We'll see!!
If all connections are good and no leak from filter head then the valve is most likely the problem.
Author:  IndyCRD [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Back when I had my Golf TDI, I had a similar problem and it ended up being the anti-shudder valve. It was sticking closed at shut-down and wouldn't let any air through the intake. When you tried to start the engine, it would just crank and crank and feel like the engine was getting no fuel.

Could it be the egr flow control sticking and making a similar symptom on the Jeep? I know it's not vacuum controlled like they are on VWs, but could it be doing something similar? Just a thought.
Author:  oldnavy [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:10 am ]
Post subject: 
IndyCRD wrote:
Back when I had my Golf TDI, I had a similar problem and it ended up being the anti-shudder valve. It was sticking closed at shut-down and wouldn't let any air through the intake. When you tried to start the engine, it would just crank and crank and feel like the engine was getting no fuel.

Could it be the egr flow control sticking and making a similar symptom on the Jeep? I know it's not vacuum controlled like they are on VWs, but could it be doing something similar? Just a thought.
With the FCV sticking it would, I believe, throw a code and it is easy to see the problem in VW and I would assume (remember what that spells) the CRD is the same.
Author:  Tinman [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks guys, this gives me something to go on. If the FVC where sticking closed, one could easily diagnosis it just by examining it with a no start. Another good reason to do the ORM (electornically). If it where the fuel control valve, you'd think there'd be a code, but nothing is absolute. My wife and I swapped vehicles the yesterday. Man, do I love this little thing. So much fun to drive.
Author:  retmil46 [ Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:53 am ]
Post subject: 
As far as fuel pressure, it will throw a CEL if there is a large enough mismatch between what the ECM is commanding for pressure and what it sees for actual pressure. That's why you will eventually get a CEL if your fuel filter becomes clogged enough.

Assuming (there's that word again) it is a fuel pressure related problem, it could be that it's bad enough to cause hard starting at this point, but the pressure difference hasn't reached the threshold where it would trigger a CEL.
Author:  Tinman [ Sun May 13, 2007 8:11 am ]
Post subject:  It's the FCV
I think I figured it out. Last night, my wife was in town and called "it isn't starting again". This time it really didn't seem like it was gonna start after a lot of trying. So I got out my tools and took off the intake hose just up stream of the FCV to inspect the valve. It was closed as expected but I watched it (best it could) while my wife turned it over. Didn't seem to open. Humm... Stuck my hand in there and pushed it open (it was stuck pretty good). She fired right up. So I guess a sticking FCV is the problem. (Thanks Walt.) The other thing I noticed is how dirty the intake was after the CAC. The oily soot is obvioiusly the reason the valve is sticking. The rig has about 18K on the clock and I did the EHM at about 6 or 8 thousand. Turbo side of the CAC is clean. So all that soot is got to be EGR related (**&^%#$% EGR). That stupid thing has got to go. I immeidiately did the ORM, which I had done earlier for a few weeks but just plugged it back up to see if the CEL would go out.

I think the guys over on the "ORM circuit" thread are on to a good fix. But it is my understanding that the FCV closes on shut down even with the ORM. Has anyone confirmed this?? If so, then the ORM won't solve this particular little issue, except, perhaps keeping things cleaner on the inside which may prevent the FCV from sticking. That would be the same for the Farmboss mod of the EGR; FCV clean but may still stick. Clean or not, I don't trust this stupid little valve any more and it is complete not necessary to engine function. What I'd like to do is get an electronic way to shut down the EGR, take off the FCV butterfly, and plate off the EGR at the turbo. Sounds like others have had this issue as well and as time goes on and intakes get dirtier, more will start to ......not start :lol: I think this brings to light other reason to KILL THE EGR :x
Author:  DZL_LOU [ Sun May 13, 2007 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: It's the FCV
Tinman wrote:
I think the guys over on the "ORM circuit" thread are on to a good fix. But it is my understanding that the FCV closes on shut down even with the ORM. Has anyone confirmed this??


I run the ORM and the FCV operates normally. It opens upon startup and closes on shut down for a smooth engine stop.

The sooty oily junk the the FCV is brought in by the EGR as I also run a provent. Pre and Post intercooler hoses are done dry, yet the FVC is coated with EGR oily soot.

The FCV is an easy replacemet if you have the tools and a little mechanical inclination.

Some FCV photos from a post I did last year....http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=13215&highlight=
Author:  Goglio704 [ Sun May 13, 2007 8:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Tinman,

You can unplug the flow control valve while it is in the open position and it won't bother you again. The effect of this is very similar to the ORM and can be done in addition to the ORM or instead of the ORM.
Author:  KenJennings [ Sun May 13, 2007 9:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Starting the CRD all week has been noticeably difficult. I've had to operate with the ORM "fix" unfixed this past week, since it was scheduled for a visit to the dealer yesterday. A couple times this week it wouldn't start on the first try.

This all went away miraculously when the sensor connection worked itself loose (again).
Author:  KJMedic [ Sun May 13, 2007 9:37 am ]
Post subject: 
KenJennings wrote:
This all went away miraculously when the sensor connection worked itself loose (again).


Someone needs to figure out how to stop the sensor from working itself loose. Mine does the same thing :lol:
Author:  oldnavy [ Sun May 13, 2007 9:58 am ]
Post subject: 
Something needs to be done about the loose MAF connectors!!! :wink: :lol:
Author:  KJMedic [ Sun May 13, 2007 10:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Looked this morning and found a loose plug on the Fuel Filter. :twisted:
Author:  Tinman [ Sun May 13, 2007 1:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Goglio704 wrote:

You can unplug the flow control valve while it is in the open position and it won't bother you again. The effect of this is very similar to the ORM and can be done in addition to the ORM or instead of the ORM.


That's what I need to know. I'll just unplug the darn thing. CEL is on anyway b/o the ORM. Thanks for that little piece of info. I assume if you unplug that by itself (without the ORM) you'd still get a CEL?? If we are gonna get rid of the EGR without a CEL then I'd say we should also figure out a way to keep this open without a CEL. Thank guys, I really appreciate all the help.
Author:  dgeist [ Sun May 13, 2007 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Same thing?
Ranger1 wrote:
It's happened to me 3 times now in the last few weeks, all during warm days, at temperatures of 75F or above. All 3 times occurred under similar conditions. It's never on cold start, it's always after a drive long enough to reach operating temperature, then a stop of about 30 or 40 minutes where engine heat soak occurs, then it cranks for several seconds, plenty of cranking speed, but it feels as if it isn't getting any fuel. It happened to me today when I left the restaurant at lunch.

I checked the fuel filter for air, but no air, and no signs of air in the clear pre-filter either. It starts and runs very well, but takes far longer than normal to start. This is something I've not experienced before. It has only happened once each trip so far. An immediate restart or another stop and heat soak period after a hard start does not cause a repeat incident for me to date.

Its our first summer-time temperatures on the ULSD - we may be experiencing something new. I never experienced this condition last summer when temps were 102F and sometimes higher.

Starting Friday, every time I've started the CRD after it sitting at least an hour, this has happened, including first thing in the AM. I cranks and runs for about 5 seconds, then just shuts down. I do a key-off, then crank it for about 10 seconds before it turns over, after which it runs peachy. I just assumed it was air-related since I just did the CAT diesel conversion, but it doesn't get better or worse and I can see no leaks on the filter head. Should I unplug the flow valve and see if it repeats itself?

Dan
Author:  Ranger1 [ Sun May 13, 2007 6:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Try bleeding it as soon as it hard starts - if that clears up the problem, it would point to air getting into the fuel head.
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