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Somewhere between Provent and Elephant Hose Mod
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20052		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  chadhargis [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Somewhere between Provent and Elephant Hose Mod
I've been looking at the Provent, and I just can't see $150+ dollars of goodies there. Seems really basic, and I'm poor (especially after buying my new to me CRD). I don't like the idea of the Elephant Hose Mod dripping oil on my driveway or under my vehicle. To me, oil residue indicates a problem, and I don't want to mask any issues.

So, I started thinking (that's dangerous!). Being a motorcycle guy, I've seen lots of CCV systems that dump oily mess back into the airbox. It's nasty stuff. A lot of guys make was is referred to as a "catch can". I was thinking I could do this on the CRD. Here's my idea.

Get a 3" piece of PVC and a couple of caps for it. Put a nipple on each side and a drain valve in the bottom. To make sure the oil doesn't just shoot across to the exit nipple, some sort of baffle would need to be put inside (see diagram).

Is there any reason why this wouldn't work? The parts would be cheap, and it would be easy to drain. I don't live in a cold climate, so I don't worry about it freezing up.

Image
Author:  IndyCRD [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think it would work fine. Just make sure that you make it so that there is no place for water to freeze and block the passage of gases....like at the bottom of your "baffle". I could see consation building up down there and then freezing up if there's not enough room. Just a thought.

People have made these and posted pictures on here. I think Oldnavy had some pictures of a very simple one made from a 20 oz. coke soda bottle with vent holes in the top. Looks like that would work just fine.

Me...I just let the oil drip. Not that much comes out and what does seems to come out while driving. I park on the street in the ghetto, so oil on the ground isn't my concern. (I don't really live in the ghetto...just close to it.)
Author:  Jeger [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mine goes into the passengers side frame rail,


I think of it as rust prevention.
Author:  Ranger1 [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
The Provent has one additional safety control which could save your CRD engine from blown seals... it has a .75 psi differential safety valve in the cap. If for any reason the output hose clogs on the Provent, the cap will vent fumes at any differential pressure greater than .75 psi. You could add something similar to that in your design, by adding a few very tiny holes (very small) in the cap and adding an internal piece of plastic to the inside of your cap, with a standoff which allows air to flow into these tiny holes, without allowing direct flow of oil fumes out of these same "relief" holes. As long as your cannister is pressurized, it won't be pulling unfiltered air in via the relief holes.

Alternatively, if you can find an inexpensive safety valve rated at 1 psi or less, you could drill and install one in your design.

Something to think about.
Author:  Jeger [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
www.microchek.com

Should make something we could use, but I have no idea on pricing.
Author:  chadhargis [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
I like the frame rail idea, but as I said, if I see oil anywhere on my undercarriage, I want it to be an indication of something bad, not "normal". Also, venting CCV gasses to the atmosphere in front of the passenger compartment could cause fumes to be sucked into the cabin via the fresh air intake for the HVAC system. Not good.

I want to feed the gasses back into the intake, just want to keep the oil and water out.
Author:  Stan Wright [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
I used a piece of 3/4" copper tubing and ran it into the frame rail, similar to Jeger. The tubing is easier to use than trying to snake a rubber hose. The first 18" or so of the elephant hose runs uphill so some of the oil can run back into the motor. I haven't noticed any oil drippings with this setup.

http://liberty.eurekaboy.com/ehm.jpg
Author:  chadhargis [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
So the oil will drain back into the engine? I figured the CCV would be a one way valve.

If that's the case, I'm wondering if I could cut the CCV hose and put in a T fitting with a length of tube and a drain valve at the bottom. I could position the T fitting so that it was at the bottom of the "uphill" hose. Oil would drain back into the tube. That would allow the oil to fall out, and not disturb any other part of the system.

Like I said, the Provent looks great, but not $150 worth. I took that money and put it toward a ScanGauge II to monitor the engine and reset the CEL from the ORM mod (when needed).
Author:  chadhargis [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
I had another idea. Since the CCV goop is oil and water, then why couldn't you use a filter for an air compressor? Would it be too restrictive??

Here's what I'm thinking of?

Image
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
I just wonder why someone hasn't run a tube back to the exhaust...just after the muffler...weld on a boss and feed it in there.
Author:  chadhargis [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Would there be a danger of it catching on fire?
Author:  Sir Sam [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
chadhargis wrote:
I had another idea. Since the CCV goop is oil and water, then why couldn't you use a filter for an air compressor? Would it be too restrictive??

Here's what I'm thinking of?

Image


ya thats a pretty cheap and easy solution, harbor frieght sells those with 1/2 inch fittings and are larger than the one pictured.

I dont see any reason something like that couldnt be used as a catch can.
Author:  chadhargis [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
That's what I was thinking...seems to work just like the Provent minus the relief valve, which in my climate isn't too big a deal. I could even cut the hose and put in a relief valve before the inline filter.

Explain to me again why the provent is $150 bucks??
Author:  Goglio704 [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
I looked into the idea of a compressed air filter, but I gave up on it because by the time you find one with a low enough pressure differential, it is just as big and expensive as a provent and still lacks a relief valve.
Author:  Jeger [ Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Goglio704 wrote:
I looked into the idea of a compressed air filter, but I gave up on it because by the time you find one with a low enough pressure differential, it is just as big and expensive as a provent and still lacks a relief valve.


X2

unless you find one at a flea market or on ebay like I did......brand new they are too expensive. Plus the Provent has a little different filter media, maybe its specialized?

I have thought of just buying the filter cartridge for the provent, or other coalescing filter and making my own housing. That way you could make one to fit where you want it too.

I was waiting on a price from microchek for a releif valve, but they never got back with me.

Definantly a project for someone who just likes to make their own stuff....The Provent is a much simpler fix than designing your own.
Author:  Ranger1 [ Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:56 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Explain to me again why the provent is $150 bucks?


Try a market size of less than 12,000 CRD's for starters. If it wasn't for other, readily adaptable, existing diesel market products, we would be stuck with the OEM hocky puck for commercial product.

It's not hard to figure out. Look at Mann Hummel. A very large German diesel manufacter, who sells to the large diesel engine market, not necessarily to high volume, low end automotive purchasers. The Provent 200 is rated for engines up to 350Kw in power, far larger than our CRD engine. In parallel, they can handle up to 700Kw. That engine size dwarfs our 120Kw CRD engine.

Market size - these are not a necessity for any diesel engine, as Jeep showed us with their ccv. It just works better than the $2 puck on our CRD's. The market for this filter is large, expensive diesel engines. $150 is not a lot of money in today's large engine diesel market. This part was never designed for discount automotive sales at PepBoys. As such, it doesn't hit the volume that most automotive parts will. Unless they start making them in China, with free prison labor, I doubt the price will decrease very much at all.

It's worth the price to those who want a well engineered product, with a relief valve, with filters available for purchase if you want them, for this specific use and who don't wish to make their own. That engineering costs money. Raw materials can make up less than 1% of a finished product on many products. Do you think it costs anywhere near $38 for a paper based fuel filter for our CRDs? Or $50 for a glow plug? Of course not. I'd be surprised if they cost more than $3 in materials to build at quantity for either part. Quite a few VW TDI owners install them for their diesel vehicles - that's where I learned of it back in March 05. Sometimes you make your own - sometimes you don't. But the cost to manufacture, distribute, stock and then sell are high, whether you sell one or 100,000. How you lower those costs per unit is volume. And volume is something the CRD market is not going to enjoy. If it wasn't for guys like Walt and his partner doing specialty custom small orders, we wouldn't even have a decent oil drain or fuel filter for our CRD's.
Author:  chadhargis [ Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
I understand why they sell them for so much, I just don't see $150 worth of value there when it seems I can make something that works as well. Maybe I can't, which is why I started this thread. I wanted some collective knowledge to let me know if I should just pony up the $150 or if I can head down the plumbing isle at Home Depot and make my own.
Author:  GilaMonster [ Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
The only problem I have read about the "plumbing isle at Home Depot" solution is that if you use the black PVC plumbing pipe (can't remember the schedule number currently), that the temperature combined with oil vapor may begin to break down the plastic and allow material to be drawn into the system. I belive I read this on a 'Japanese vehicle' forum where they were making PCV catch cans for the intake track.

Lot of designs out there for these, I've seem some fabbed up out of aluminum, but the coke bottle method has been working fine me. I realize that solution does not fit your goals, but sometimes one has to factor that into the effort.

I do agree on the provent being a bit high in cost, especially the replacement filter costs.
Author:  Ranger1 [ Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
I would think that as long you can keep the crankcase pressure from building up, you should be fine. As long as you keep the flow going, pressure shouldn't build. It might take some experimentation to find out how to do that. If you do end up blowing an engine or turbo seal, $150 will start to look inexpensive.

Some time ago, someone posted about using a smaller device from one of their gasolene engines as a ccv.
I think it worked by letting the engine oil drop to the bottom of the bowl and the air exited near the top of the device. It looked like a smaller provent. They reported back that the turbolence within the separator bowl kept the oil separation from working properly. Too much air flow iirc, probably from the turbo boost.

Good luck.
Author:  chadhargis [ Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
I might just do the coke bottle thing and see how it works for me.

I'll remove the CAC tube and see how much gunk is in there. If it's as nasty as my MAP sensor was, then I've got a big mess in the intercooler.
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