LOST JEEPS :: View topic - DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!

So the saga has reached a climax. A non-CRD tech has diagnosed the injection pump has failed....and because of the CAT filter it is not on warranty!!!

The codes pulled are a P0093 Fuel system leak detected – large leak Wiring, fuel pressure sensor, mechanical fault and there is no pressure on the "high" side of the injection pump. See previous post for full symptoms (Help me Help the tech).

The service manager said "Because the CAT filter is not a water separator the pump could have ingested water an DC will not warranty the repair....they are voiding the warranty on the entire motor unless we replace the pump."

I knew that they can void the system that is involve but not the entire motor???

Now...how in hell did adding the CAT filter cause the injection pump to fail???

I ran it for at least 20 minutes right after the installation and no problems.

My next step is to figure out the true cause of the failure, if in fact it is dead, and then decide if the $3100 pump is rebuildable or there is another source for the pump. Is it a Bosch system?

Wow my first mod to the KJ and I get this result. Please offer any comments or suggestions.

Mike

The burdon of proof is on the dealer not the customer. I would be kicking and screeming at the service manager demanding that he prove it was the filters fualt. Dealers suck and will use anything to try and get out of warranty.

Greg

If by chance he had a glob of the factory thread lock drop into the clean side of the filter it might cause a pump failure, but I would think you would hear or feel it lose power and stop, not just a sudden stop.

I am almost sure the real problem is the tech is not a experienced diesel tech other then maybe Cummins which until 06 model were nothing like our CRD's, I would look for experienced Sprinter tech which is a almost identical setup as far as EGR, CCV, FCV, IP and computer management.

OldNavy, Greg, and the others thanks for the info and hints....I suspect there is air somewhere that is causing the 0093 code to be thrown. The tech is not a diesel guy and he freely admitted that he had never worked on a CRD AND the service manager admitted that the shop had never had a CRD in. MY bad, I should have found a sprinter tech, but the roadside assistance tows to the nearest dealer. I should have insisted that they tow it to a qualified shop!!! I have never had a new vehicle warranty and now I know that I really don't.

UPDATE: I have a really great family friend who is a European diesel guru, I should have called him first I know, he was furious at the ineptitude of the DC guys. He said to get it out of there ASAP and he will look it over. His thoughts, keep in mind he has never worked on the VM Motori but a ton of Bosch systems, are as follows:
that there is air somewhere
-no way could there be enough water to cause that pump to fail (it would take litres to cause a pump failure)
-even if the pump did cabbage it is about $50 in parts to rebuild (DC wants $3100 for a pump)
-get the fuel analyzed
-loves the CAT filter
-the are all a bunch of F$%^ing idiots
-when it is fixed hire a lawyer and sue them for the warranty to be reinstated

My thoughts. I was stupid to take it to the dealer and should have just dragged it back home and called Bernie. called upon the wisdom of the forum first....and the biggest mistake was trying to convince a poorly trained service manager that I was adding a superior filter to the CRD. Holy crap are warranties useless. I will have the Heep home today or Monday and will update when it runs.

Now...how in hell did adding the CAT filter cause the injection pump to fail???

Author:	drharv [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:	DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!!
So the saga has reached a climax. A non-CRD tech has diagnosed the injection pump has failed....and because of the CAT filter it is not on warranty!!! The codes pulled are a P0093 Fuel system leak detected – large leak Wiring, fuel pressure sensor, mechanical fault and there is no pressure on the "high" side of the injection pump. See previous post for full symptoms (Help me Help the tech). The service manager said "Because the CAT filter is not a water separator the pump could have ingested water an DC will not warranty the repair....they are voiding the warranty on the entire motor unless we replace the pump." I knew that they can void the system that is involve but not the entire motor??? Now...how in hell did adding the CAT filter cause the injection pump to fail??? I ran it for at least 20 minutes right after the installation and no problems. My next step is to figure out the true cause of the failure, if in fact it is dead, and then decide if the $3100 pump is rebuildable or there is another source for the pump. Is it a Bosch system? Wow my first mod to the KJ and I get this result. Please offer any comments or suggestions. Mike

Author:	Goglio704 [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:
If I were in this situation, I would do one of two things: 1: Sue. Not my way personally, but appropriate in this case. 2: Take the Jeep elsewhere. They've already voided the warranty on the injection system. They can't force you to use them for the repair. If you get it repaired elsewhere and save the receipts, I don't think they could void the rest of the engine warranty. If you ever need the engine warranty and they deny your claim, see item 1. FWIW, I doubt the thing is damaged. I suspect incompetence on their part. Also, if you're interested. There was an Ebay auction for a CRD injection system recently. It didn't sell. I could PM you the seller's Ebay identity.

Author:	Pablo [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2
drharv wrote: So the saga has reached a climax. A non-CRD tech has diagnosed the injection pump has failed....and because of the CAT filter it is not on warranty!!! The codes pulled are a P0093 Fuel system leak detected – large leak Wiring, fuel pressure sensor, mechanical fault and there is no pressure on the "high" side of the injection pump. See previous post for full symptoms (Help me Help the tech). The service manager said "Because the CAT filter is not a water separator the pump could have ingested water an DC will not warranty the repair....they are voiding the warranty on the entire motor unless we replace the pump." I knew that they can void the system that is involve but not the entire motor??? Now...how in hell did adding the CAT filter cause the injection pump to fail??? I ran it for at least 20 minutes right after the installation and no problems. My next step is to figure out the true cause of the failure, if in fact it is dead, and then decide if the $3100 pump is rebuildable or there is another source for the pump. Is it a Bosch system? Wow my first mod to the KJ and I get this result. Please offer any comments or suggestions. Mike They cannot void warranty unless the pump DID injest water and they must prove that. Read the Magason-Moss warranty act and remind your dealer that you read it and that they need to read it. If, however your vehicle did inject water, then they can void your warranty. You had better get a good diesel mechanic to look at it and get everything documented in writing, particularly cause of failure. I would also contact Old Navy and get the results from the test done on the stock paper filter that passes water and debris and mention its shoddy construction as the reason for replacement in the first place. While your at it-- mention you posted this on a Liberty board in the CRD forum and that they should check to see the good will they are generating with their (potentially former) customers by outright denying your warranty without getting the facts as to why this pump actually failed first. All fuel injection parts are BOSCH on this thing.

Author:	LanduytG [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:
The burdon of proof is on the dealer not the customer. I would be kicking and screeming at the service manager demanding that he prove it was the filters fualt. Dealers suck and will use anything to try and get out of warranty. Greg

Author:	oldnavy [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:
LanduytG wrote: The burdon of proof is on the dealer not the customer. I would be kicking and screeming at the service manager demanding that he prove it was the filters fualt. Dealers suck and will use anything to try and get out of warranty. Greg Greg didn't you post those fuel sample test here somewhere. Maybe if you have it bookmarked you could send a link to the guy with dealer screwing him. Most likely the OEM filter failed due to moisture from condensation and trashed the pump or the pump was defective from the start. Bad news is Chrysler/Jeep will stick with the dealer 99% of the time no matter what the proof or bad press. All mfg's seem to be that way from what I have seen over the years. Took Toyota 10 years to admit that their engines had a sludge problem, had a friend that had to use a lawyer to get Toyota dealer to pay reppair warranty.

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DC is denying warranty on the injection pump due to CAT2!!! http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21678	Page 1 of 12

Author:	Endurance [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:05 am ]
Post subject:
Good point, they have to prove that water is in fact the cause of the damage. Then they can go ahead and blame it on the filter mod. Stuff like this makes me furious. I would go as high up the DC latter as possible. Dont even mess with the dealership if they are not cooperative.

Author:	Cowcatcher [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:30 am ]
Post subject:
Just a note, DRHARV is in Alberta so Magnason-Moss does not apply. I am sure there is a Canadian equivalent that be as strong. Is the pump mechanical? If it is I can't imagine a total failure that would make it stop dead. If it is electrical then I would guess there is an electical problem somewhere associated with the filter head. Can't really tell when the CEL got thrown...might have been before the failure.

Author:	dslguy [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:42 am ]
Post subject:	Large Fuel Leak
Did your CRD just stop running, or go into limp mode? After changing to the CAT I had this code come up, L.O.S.T. power and then went into limp mode. Drove it to the dealer, D Mech checked it out. Replaced fuel filter assmby and reinstalled the CAT, 0093 went away after that. I still have a air leak, in as much I have to bleed the filter almost every day now. Have not had the time to get this leak searched out yet. So if you have a large enough air leak the system will throw a 0093 code.

Author:	Joe Romas [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:03 am ]
Post subject:
This won't help DRHARV since his CRD is in the hands of the dealer but if a gasoline pressure pump was put inline before the fuel filter head and hooked to 12 volts it would seem the source of any air leak would start leaking fuel wouldn't it It's also possible the pump ingested somthing. Absolute cleanliness is essential It is time to find a reputable diesel shop willing to look at a crd

Author:	ATXKJ [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:26 am ]
Post subject:
I suspect your dealer is clueless and grasping at straws - however the only thing I can think of that might help If water in the fuel was bad enough to kill the pump - then there should be some left - try to get fuel samples - especially from the Cat filter and fuel head - to be analyzed for water contaimination. I suspect there's always a trace amount of water so you may need some comparision samples from a good running diesel - preferably another CRD if there is one readily available. The worst part is - they could probably replace the pump and it still wouldn't run. just because of the timing - I also suspect the Cat - but probably some air leak at the head or something that moved/damaged in the install - 20 minutes of running is still - 1 run cycle and then it sat, something could have come loose, moved, shorted ect. The tech doesn't know how to troubleshoot - only how to read codes. personally - I'd gamble and have them replace the entire fuel filter head and filter - back to factory stock - and then see if it starts, that would elimate the Cat as a current problem.

Author:	oldnavy [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:43 am ]
Post subject:
If by chance he had a glob of the factory thread lock drop into the clean side of the filter it might cause a pump failure, but I would think you would hear or feel it lose power and stop, not just a sudden stop. I am almost sure the real problem is the tech is not a experienced diesel tech other then maybe Cummins which until 06 model were nothing like our CRD's, I would look for experienced Sprinter tech which is a almost identical setup as far as EGR, CCV, FCV, IP and computer management.

Author:	erockskj [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:31 am ]
Post subject:
oldnavy wrote: If by chance he had a glob of the factory thread lock drop into the clean side of the filter it might cause a pump failure, but I would think you would hear or feel it lose power and stop, not just a sudden stop. I am almost sure the real problem is the tech is not a experienced diesel tech other then maybe Cummins which until 06 model were nothing like our CRD's, I would look for experienced Sprinter tech which is a almost identical setup as far as EGR, CCV, FCV, IP and computer management. This could be it! It`s to much of a cowinkydink that my jeep slowly died with in less than 100 miles of cat filter change over.They changed back filter head to OEM but did not fix the problem.Changed crank sensor ( did not fix the problem). Now says tech is talking to teacher that teaches a class on CRD`s in Atlanta to get a grip on the problem. The service manager did say" it looks like nothing I did caused the problem" But if it`s thread lock thats not so true,is it

Author:	drharv [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:40 am ]
Post subject:	Thanks for all of the support
OldNavy, Greg, and the others thanks for the info and hints....I suspect there is air somewhere that is causing the 0093 code to be thrown. The tech is not a diesel guy and he freely admitted that he had never worked on a CRD AND the service manager admitted that the shop had never had a CRD in. MY bad, I should have found a sprinter tech, but the roadside assistance tows to the nearest dealer. I should have insisted that they tow it to a qualified shop!!! I have never had a new vehicle warranty and now I know that I really don't. UPDATE: I have a really great family friend who is a European diesel guru, I should have called him first I know, he was furious at the ineptitude of the DC guys. He said to get it out of there ASAP and he will look it over. His thoughts, keep in mind he has never worked on the VM Motori but a ton of Bosch systems, are as follows: that there is air somewhere -no way could there be enough water to cause that pump to fail (it would take litres to cause a pump failure) -even if the pump did cabbage it is about $50 in parts to rebuild (DC wants $3100 for a pump) -get the fuel analyzed -loves the CAT filter -the are all a bunch of F$%^ing idiots -when it is fixed hire a lawyer and sue them for the warranty to be reinstated My thoughts. I was stupid to take it to the dealer and should have just dragged it back home and called Bernie. called upon the wisdom of the forum first....and the biggest mistake was trying to convince a poorly trained service manager that I was adding a superior filter to the CRD. Holy crap are warranties useless. I will have the Heep home today or Monday and will update when it runs.

Author:	oldnavy [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Thanks for all of the support
drharv wrote: OldNavy, Greg, and the others thanks for the info and hints....I suspect there is air somewhere that is causing the 0093 code to be thrown. The tech is not a diesel guy and he freely admitted that he had never worked on a CRD AND the service manager admitted that the shop had never had a CRD in. MY bad, I should have found a sprinter tech, but the roadside assistance tows to the nearest dealer. I should have insisted that they tow it to a qualified shop!!! I have never had a new vehicle warranty and now I know that I really don't. UPDATE: I have a really great family friend who is a European diesel guru, I should have called him first I know, he was furious at the ineptitude of the DC guys. He said to get it out of there ASAP and he will look it over. His thoughts, keep in mind he has never worked on the VM Motori but a ton of Bosch systems, are as follows: that there is air somewhere -no way could there be enough water to cause that pump to fail (it would take litres to cause a pump failure) -even if the pump did cabbage it is about $50 in parts to rebuild (DC wants $3100 for a pump) -get the fuel analyzed -loves the CAT filter -the are all a bunch of F$%^ing idiots -when it is fixed hire a lawyer and sue them for the warranty to be reinstated My thoughts. I was stupid to take it to the dealer and should have just dragged it back home and called Bernie. called upon the wisdom of the forum first....and the biggest mistake was trying to convince a poorly trained service manager that I was adding a superior filter to the CRD. Holy crap are warranties useless. I will have the Heep home today or Monday and will update when it runs. Well if all turns out ok with your friend and he finds the problem then you have learned a lesson, just hope it was not too expensive a lesson. Once your friend finds and fixes the problem, have him document it and then go to Chrysler help line and explain the problem and the fix and that real problem was a none certified diesel CRD tech & service dept manager and ask for reinstatement of warranty. Do not threaten to go to lawyer as they will go full defensive, just be calm and explain everything. If all that fails then if you feel the urge to threaten lawyer go ahead, but I wouldn't as there is nothing like supprise attack. If you sue be sure to name the dealer as main liable sourse.

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Author:	drharv [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:58 am ]
Post subject:
Exactly what my darling wife said. Bernie will fix it and then I will talk to DC of Canada before any legal stuff happens. The main problem is that now I know what the dealer is good for...nothing.

Author:	BiodieselJeep.com [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:03 am ]
Post subject:	Its probably an air leak
I tried to post yesterday but I messed up. Put the stock filter on, and really bleed it. The tech shoudl at least know how to do that. I still think there is a TON of air in there...sounds WAY too simple, but that is very likely the problem. That CAT assembly was either installed wrong (no offense), built wrong, or the filter is randomly wrong. Either way, your problem sound JUST like a lot of air in the fuel line (10-15 minutes of fuel is probably what is in the lines after the massive leak started). It will be a trick to get all the air out, but I even the idiot tech could do it after you re-install the OEM filter assembly.

Author:	oldnavy [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:08 am ]
Post subject:
Even nowdays at MB dealerships finding a good diesel tech is hard to do from what I have heard from some MB diesel owners. Old diesel owners like myself and few others here, we either do it ourselves or find a good independent shop or combanation of both.

Author:	drharv [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:09 am ]
Post subject:
I agree, I may have forked the install (I followed the directions to the letter) and that is what I will do as soon as I have it in the car hole. No offense taken...I am very handy but everyone can screw up occasionally.

Author:	Ranger1 [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:13 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: Now...how in hell did adding the CAT filter cause the injection pump to fail??? It didn't. No more than it causes CAT diesel engines to fail. Look logically at what's happened so far: You have a problem, immediately after altering the fuel filter head. You take it to a dealer Dealer tech jumps at multiple symptoms that could be responsible for any diesel engine not working: lack of injection due to bad timing sensor lack of pump pressure lack of good troubleshooting skills Dealership is desperate to reach next step, has already invested their time without possibility of generating revenue You already sense dealer tech doesn't know what he/she is doing. They probably suspect that you realize their weakness. Something has to be done. Suddenly, a problem is identified that generates lots of revenue for the dealer, at your expense and gets the dealer and his unskilled tech off the hook trying to convince Chrysler to pay for warranty work. With a tech this poorly trained, it's a good bet that Chrysler has heard from them previously on other misdiagnosed warranty work. Their reputation with Chrysler is probably worse than it is with you by now. The path of least resistance points to you, the paying customer and that yellow scapegoat CAT filter hanging off the fuel head. Now a pump is diagnosed as bad, because the CAT filter doesn't have a water drain on it and could have let water pass through the pump and ruined it. How do you know this bumbling tech didn't run the pump dry in his effort to fix the problem and ruin the pump on his own, if indeed that is the problem? If you had enough water in the fuel to destroy that pump, you should have noticed some rough running, some white smoke, something to tell you that the fuel was contaminated. You indicated nothing to date that says prior to replacing the fuel filter that this was the case. The only fault code you've posted so far is the Large Leak, which points to an air leak in the fuel system. What other codes did they pull to support the lack of high pressure fuel on the rail? If they can't support the claim with some fault codes, to use their own troubleshooting source of info, then don't accept it. Suggestions: Get the vehicle towed out of their shop asap, before something else "goes wrong" with it. If you're willing to work on it, tow it home. Read the codes with a code reader, or if works on yours, from the odometer. Write them down. Remember that the last 2 digits are transposed, so correct for this bug. Then work the problem from that perspective. If nothing but a P0093 is there, start with the most likely area, the area you altered just before the problem started. The fuel head. Also check the other easily determined problem areas - like the AFC/TCV valve in the air intake tube by pulling the CAC hose, using a flashlight and watching it while someone else attempts to start it. Eliminate that possible problem area first. Also check the fuel rail pressure connector and wiring, to be sure you didn't accidentally knock something loose while you were working on the fuel head area originally. Decide whether you are willing to invest $150 USD for a new complete fuel head to completely exonerate the CAT filter system, with a possible air Large Leak in it. If so, order one online, connect the new one inline, without even removing the old filter from the vehicle, just to see if this solves the problem. Prime it well, then see if this works. If it does, you know more than your dealer tech. If it doesn't, check your fuel quality - pull a sample from the hose to the filter and vacuum some out, then inspect it. If it looks good, send a sample to be tested - you'll need this info to invalidate the dealer claim of fuel contamination. If the fuel sample checks good, your dealer's diagnosis just fell apart legally. Those are some simple steps you can start with. At this point, convenience isn't on the menu - you are going to have to spend some time and money to get this resolved. If you do find more codes, post them or look them up online to see if there is anything pointing to a high pressure pump failure. Best wishes.

Author:	oldnavy [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:17 am ]
Post subject:
Very well said R1.