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Diesel in the base GC ?
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Author:  vtdog [ Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Diesel in the base GC ?
I stopped by the dealer today for a very minor fix and was talking about the diesel in Jeeps to a dealership employee. He said that less than 1,000 and probably less than 500 and maybe even only about 250 GC diesels have been delivered to customers nationwide. The reason for the lack of sales was reported to be the fact that the diesel is only available in the very high end GC with MSRPs in the 42-48k range.

He said that the dealers have pushed back against this policy with Jeep due to the higher than expected volume of diesel sales in the "cheap" Liberty. He said that he was told that the CRD will be available in the base model GC with a list of approx 35k starting with next years model.

I can't verify what I was told. I am only the messenger!
Author:  bugnout [ Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yup, I wouldn't have bought mine if the cost was similiar to the Diesel Pickups available. I would have bought the diesel Silverado or Dodge Cummins powered vehicles, both get around 20 mpg.

I don't need to tow over 5000 pounds and am not interested in a gas vehicle with 5000 lb towing capability that gets 15 MPG when not towing and 12 when towing.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
I made a thread a while back....i priced out a limited CRD, overland CRD and MB ml320 CDI.

they all were within 5k range (43-47k).

jesus thats alot of money, for the same price as a CRD you could be buying a Mercedes.

If the CRD was availible in a base model that could be purchased stripped down more people would buy it, also more people would buy the 45K overland because the lower price of the CRD base gets them in, and then they decide they want all the goodies anyway.

sticker shock will scare too many people off. having a low price to advertise(starting at 35K) is the type of thing to get people in

The base price of a GC 4x4 is 30k. The diesel is a 3,700 option. at 34k I bet ALOT more people would be ready to buy it, and at 34k you get alot more people putting their foot in the door and then deciding to spend 10k more for the overland.
Author:  Threeweight [ Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:40 am ]
Post subject: 
Even at 34k, they are missing the point.

Here in Oregon we're in the middle of bio-diesel land. Half the VW TDI's I see are sporting biodiesel stickers, and of the 4-5 CRD Libertys I've seen around town, all of them have been bearing the Sequential BioDiesel logo. I believe most folks did not buy the Liberty CRD for off-roading or for towing... they bought it because it was the only affordable domestic SUV that looked good, could do some offroading/towing, and still made them feel like they were doing something decent for the environment due to the MPG and possibility of biodiesel.

Take the affordable part out of the equation, and the good MPG, and you have a recipe for a bust. At 34k bucks for a 23 mpg highway vehicle that looks kinda bland, I don't think the Grand Cherokee will do that well. I could afford one, but I wouldn't buy it because of the MPG.

Cerebrus would be much smarter to license one of the smaller Bluetec engines in development by Mercedes/VW for use in the new Liberty, or in a Wrangler, and try to keep the price in the 20-30k range. A competent, affordable SUV that gets 27+ mpg on the highway is a winner. A competent, expensive SUV that gets 23 mpg... why bother?
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Threeweight wrote:
Even at 34k, they are missing the point.

Here in Oregon we're in the middle of bio-diesel land. Half the VW TDI's I see are sporting biodiesel stickers, and of the 4-5 CRD Libertys I've seen around town, all of them have been bearing the Sequential BioDiesel logo. I believe most folks did not buy the Liberty CRD for off-roading or for towing... they bought it because it was the only affordable domestic SUV that looked good, could do some offroading/towing, and still made them feel like they were doing something decent for the environment due to the MPG and possibility of biodiesel.

Take the affordable part out of the equation, and the good MPG, and you have a recipe for a bust. At 34k bucks for a 23 mpg highway vehicle that looks kinda bland, I don't think the Grand Cherokee will do that well. I could afford one, but I wouldn't buy it because of the MPG.

Cerebrus would be much smarter to license one of the smaller Bluetec engines in development by Mercedes/VW for use in the new Liberty, or in a Wrangler, and try to keep the price in the 20-30k range. A competent, affordable SUV that gets 27+ mpg on the highway is a winner. A competent, expensive SUV that gets 23 mpg... why bother?


Right, I think 34k is still pretty high, but if you look at the base plus the CRD option thats what you get, so its a reasonible figure that I think they should be able to do without trouble.

Honestly though, even at 30k for a base GC I think its overpriced.

I think making the base of the CRD price being 32k would be pretty doable as well, and starts getting into affordable territory.
Author:  vtdog [ Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Locally here in NH, the VW dealers only sell the TDI with every option known to man and they sticker at around 24k. VW is selling a car that you can get for 18k as a base and adding 33% for the privilage of buying a diesel. Maybe that is Jeep's business model.

So 34 does not seem so bad for a GC (but you will get only half the mpg of a TDI). I'm still not buying one at that price!
Author:  longarm [ Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Here in SE Michigan a Jeep dealership had to replace the diesel engine in a GC with under 1000 miles on it. He said that they are having some problems with the new diesel. Hmmmmmm, dejavu.
Author:  KJbob [ Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:37 am ]
Post subject: 
Threeweight wrote:
Cerebrus would be much smarter to license one of the smaller Bluetec engines in development by Mercedes/VW for use in the new Liberty, or in a Wrangler, and try to keep the price in the 20-30k range. A competent, affordable SUV that gets 27+ mpg on the highway is a winner. A competent, expensive SUV that gets 23 mpg... why bother?


EXACTLY! What a surprise...$42k-$48k GC CRD's aren't selling. :roll: Here are the things negatively affecting sales of this model.

1. The price.
2. This country, generally speaking, does not have (at least yet) an appreciation of diesel technology in passenger vehicles.
3. DCX produced the Liberty CRD for only two years and then stopped. How long will the GC CRD be produced?
4. The sale of Chrysler by Daimler may put an end to Mercedes powered Grand Cherokees.

Diesel's have to gain a more widespread acceptance in this country before people flock to a high priced relatively low mileage diesel vehicle. :wink:
Author:  retmil46 [ Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:56 am ]
Post subject: 
Sir Sam wrote:
I made a thread a while back....i priced out a limited CRD, overland CRD and MB ml320 CDI.

they all were within 5k range (43-47k).

jesus thats alot of money, for the same price as a CRD you could be buying a Mercedes.


And that's what the guys over in Germany wanted. If DC was going to be selling diesels, then by god it was going to be MB diesels. Can't have Chrysler with their third-party Italian engine underpricing and outselling Daddy Benz.

Just picked up the latest issue of Diesel Power, and they had a little blurb in there from Nick Cappa, Manager of Advanced Technology Communications (ie, head of the advertising dept) for DC.

He said "The next phase of our long term North American diesel strategy is the Grand Cherokee. Other vehicles are being considered, but we're taking it slow and introducing the diesel to U.S. customers in the appropriate packages". :roll:

When asked about the demand for the Liberty CRD - "We sold much more than we expected. THE LIBERTY DIESEL WAS A SUCCESS ALMOST TO A FAULT, BUT PHASING IT OUT WAS PART OF THE LONG TERM STRATEGY (my capitals). Bringing back a diesel Liberty to North America is not in our current plan but is not impossible". :?

Is it me, or did he just admit in so many words what we've suspected - that the Liberty CRD was nothing more than a market test vehicle, and now they're pulling their own version of the old bait and switch routine?

As far as Diesel Power's opinion on this - "this is a big year for cupholder improvements". :lol:
Author:  Threeweight [ Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
retmil46 wrote:
Sir Sam wrote:
When asked about the demand for the Liberty CRD - "We sold much more than we expected. THE LIBERTY DIESEL WAS A SUCCESS ALMOST TO A FAULT, BUT PHASING IT OUT WAS PART OF THE LONG TERM STRATEGY (my capitals). Bringing back a diesel Liberty to North America is not in our current plan but is not impossible".


A little like Ford canceling the Mustang back in 1965 or so, after a prodigious sales, because their marketing plan called for making more land yachts with tail fins and portholes.

Is it me, or are US automakers intentionally trying to fail?

Here in Oregon, our legislature just passed a big biofuels bill. Financial incentives for fuel producers to develop biodiesel. Mandates that all gas stations in the state w/ diesel pumps offer at least B5. A new consumer tax deduction that allows drivers to deduct some of the cost of purchasing B20 or better. All this, and the only affordable new diesels are VW's, perhaps soon to be joined by Honda.
Author:  DadsDiesel [ Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Toyota,Honda vs GC LOL!!!
Honda will join the ranks.

What about a diesel Pilot? Or Accord?

Toyota Tundra with a Cat diesel.... dodge LOOK OUT!

Everywhere else in the world even the big three sell diesel power plants. And, they sell WELL!!

Are they trying to put themselves out of business??? NO. The U.S. marketing directors need to grow some big brass ones and as Nike says, "Just Do It".

Dad
Author:  Cowcatcher [ Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
KJbob wrote:
4. The sale of Chrysler by Daimler may put an end to Mercedes powered Grand Cherokees.


Daimler only sold Cerebrus 80% of Chrysler so they still have a stake and Blue Tech could be part of it.

Also the Cerebrus deal is not final and with Congress scrutinizing private equity firms and a report out in the last couple of days that the equity leveraged buyouts are being leveraged with funny money, that they are upside down financially (including the Cerebrus deal), there is some speculation that the institutional money backing the deal may start backing away from it.

Finally, even though the VM Motori isn't branded Benz there is still a family relationship so who gives a rip as long as the family profits.
Author:  naturist [ Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:22 am ]
Post subject: 
Near as I can tell, Detroit has been trying hard to put "the Big Three" out of business for almost 60 years. It started with the original VW bug back in the early 50s, when the eggheads in Detroit insisted nobody in their right mind would buy one of those tiny, cheap, reliable, ugly little things instead of a good ole 'merican car, fins and all.

Every step of the way since then, they've made the wrong decisions. When VW started selling like hotcakes, Ford and Chevy responded with the Falcon and the Corvair. I see no difference here. In all those decades, the folks in charge at GM, Ford, and Chrysler have not learned a single thing.
Author:  Fulltimer [ Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:04 am ]
Post subject: 
It is interesting that Europe is full of diesels that run good, are dependable and good mileage. In cars, trucks, busses etc. But Detroit can't see it. Is it because of bed partners in the gas companies?

Terry
Author:  Cowpie1 [ Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Fulltimer wrote:
It is interesting that Europe is full of diesels that run good, are dependable and good mileage. In cars, trucks, busses etc. But Detroit can't see it. Is it because of bed partners in the gas companies?

Terry


Not sure, but the gas (oil) companies would benefit either way, I think. I believe it is more just plain stupidity on Detroit, political aspirations of idiots, and the tree hugging community. What an ugly combination.

As it has been posted, Detroit kinda gets in to an idea behind the curve. Only once in a while have they hit a homerun. But corporate boardrooms are what they are, and they are comfortable with the present and try to avoid the future. This is why they are in the position they are now. I deal with this same mentality at my company. Always afraid to try inovative things. Of course, it costs in the long run. I can only watch it and sigh.

Time for some unconventional thinking and fresh "meat" in those boardrooms.
Author:  KJbob [ Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:47 am ]
Post subject: 
Cowcatcher wrote:
KJbob wrote:
4. The sale of Chrysler by Daimler may put an end to Mercedes powered Grand Cherokees.


Daimler only sold Cerebrus 80% of Chrysler so they still have a stake and Blue Tech could be part of it.

Also the Cerebrus deal is not final and with Congress scrutinizing private equity firms and a report out in the last couple of days that the equity leveraged buyouts are being leveraged with funny money, that they are upside down financially (including the Cerebrus deal), there is some speculation that the institutional money backing the deal may start backing away from it.

Finally, even though the VM Motori isn't branded Benz there is still a family relationship so who gives a rip as long as the family profits.


I guess it all depends on who was "pushing" for the introduction of diesels into the Jeep brand. If it was Chrysler's initiative, then maybe diesel's will continue. If it was Daimler's insistence that the Grand Cherokee gets a diesel, who knows. :?

All I know is that they pulled the plug on the Liberty CRD after two years and there are no current plans to re-introduce it.

As much as I would like to continue to "buy American", GM, Ford, and Chrysler have been making lots of bad decisions for the past 4 decades.
Author:  Threeweight [ Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Cowpie1 wrote:
believe it is more just plain stupidity on Detroit, political aspirations of idiots, and the tree hugging community. What an ugly combination.


As a confirmed hugger of trees (and salmon, elk, and the occasional muley), I'd point out that it is the tree huggers that are pushing bio-diesel, and buying up Jetta, Golf, and Passat TDI's. Oh, and many Liberty CRD's as well.

Europe has strict air quality standards, and adopted low sulfer diesel long before the US did. IMO, the problem is that the US automakers have not wanted to invest in diesel technology, whether it is the new clean diesels (like VW and Honda seem to be able to make, but not the Big 3), or smaller diesels suitable for passenger cars and light trucks (there is a reason we are running motors made in Italy, not Michigan, in our Liberty CRD's.

Back when the Liberty CRD was canceled, Chrysler's PR people blamed clean air rules. According to the article, the real reason appears to be what many of us suspected-- the Libby CRD was an experiment to test the market, not a serious effort to bring a quality, high-mpg SUV to market in a sustained way.
Author:  flash7210 [ Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Threeweight wrote:
Cowpie1 wrote:
believe it is more just plain stupidity on Detroit, political aspirations of idiots, and the tree hugging community. What an ugly combination.


As a confirmed hugger of trees (and salmon, elk, and the occasional muley), I'd point out that it is the tree huggers that are pushing bio-diesel, and buying up Jetta, Golf, and Passat TDI's. Oh, and many Liberty CRD's as well.

Europe has strict air quality standards, and adopted low sulfer diesel long before the US did. IMO, the problem is that the US automakers have not wanted to invest in diesel technology, whether it is the new clean diesels (like VW and Honda seem to be able to make, but not the Big 3), or smaller diesels suitable for passenger cars and light trucks (there is a reason we are running motors made in Italy, not Michigan, in our Liberty CRD's.

Back when the Liberty CRD was canceled, Chrysler's PR people blamed clean air rules. According to the article, the real reason appears to be what many of us suspected-- the Libby CRD was an experiment to test the market, not a serious effort to bring a quality, high-mpg SUV to market in a sustained way.




The sad thing is that no auto maker would have to invest in developing
any new diesel technology. It's already been done by companies like VM
and Isusu. They would only have to buy the engines from a company
with experience in that area.
The reason the Big 3 are failing is because they dont listen to their
customers and continue to build vehicles based on the status quo of 20
years ago. Continuing to sell a product that has remained unchanged
for 20 years when their consumer base has changed dramatically
leaves the door open for any competitor to come in a steal thier buisness.
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