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 Post subject: What is the root cause of diesel lag?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:25 pm 
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Every diesel I've driven including the CRD has a bit of delay between mashing the skinny pedal and having something important happen.

What's the root cause of diesel lag? Is it merely the greater mass of the engine, so it takes a little more time to start spinning things faster? Or is it some fueling/combustion formula that can't change as fast as fuel volume can increase? (Or probably several reasons conspiring together?)

I imagine there must be a way of beating the lag or there wouldn't be an Audi diesel race car kicking all the gasser butts.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:28 pm 
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InMotion Tune will handle that!

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 Post subject: Re: What is the root cause of diesel lag?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:29 pm 
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KenJennings wrote:
Every diesel I've driven including the CRD has a bit of delay between mashing the skinny pedal and having something important happen.

What's the root cause of diesel lag? Is it merely the greater mass of the engine, so it takes a little more time to start spinning things faster? Or is it some fueling/combustion formula that can't change as fast as fuel volume can increase? (Or probably several reasons conspiring together?)

I imagine there must be a way of beating the lag or there wouldn't be an Audi diesel race car kicking all the gasser butts.


You mean "turbo lag," its intrinsic to every turbo car, a NA diesel wouldnt have the lag, it would just be slow all the time. With turbo lag you drive in a manner such that you keep your RPM up to the point where the turbo is still nicely spooled, that way your not waiting for the turbo to spool.

The CRD is pretty nice on turbo lag because of the VNT turbo, some cars can have horrible turbo lag, but lots of top end power, because of how they are setup, larger turbo, more power, more lag, smaller turbo, less lag, less power, its all about comprimises.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the root cause of diesel lag?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:29 pm 
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Sir Sam wrote:
You mean "turbo lag," its intrinsic to every turbo car, a NA diesel wouldnt have the lag, it would just be slow all the time. With turbo lag you drive in a manner such that you keep your RPM up to the point where the turbo is still nicely spooled, that way your not waiting for the turbo to spool. . . .


I'm pretty sure the diesel van (looked just like a UPS truck) I drove in the Air Force back in 1988 did not have a turbo. It was a solid second or two after stomping on the pedal before it would take effect. (The truck also had a very "pleasant" 15 second glow plug, but that's another issue.) That diesel was very driver tolerant -- having a manual tranny it was still almost impossible to stall the engine.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:22 pm 
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More complicated than just spool up...length of tubes to intercooler, ect.

EGR and NOx control is another root cause:

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/61787 ... ption.html

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:26 pm 
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A non-turbo diesel will rev slowly because diesel fuel burns slower than
gasolene and it has greater recirprocating mass than an equal sized
gasser. Adding a turbo helps out a little by stuffing more air into the
cylinders for greater combustion.

Many street performance cars like Porches, Supra's, 3000GT's, and
300ZX's have "twin" turbos. Usually one small and one big. The small
one increases power at low RPM while the big one does it at higher RPM.
This reduces a lot of the turbo lag.

Your AF delivery van's engine most likely had a mechanical governor on
the injection pump. The governor setting will have a huge effect on
engine acceleration.
On an old M113A2 (Detroit 6V-53) I used to adjust the governors so they
would have better acceleration and performance. The drawback was that
this increased the likelyhood of a runaway.
The newer M113A3's had a turbo added and a better trans so I never had
make any adjustments.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:33 am 
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For many years all diesels have had a lag built in to the fuel system to decrease black smoke emission. Every diesel does it different. Get around an industrial or marine fuel systemed diesel and there isn't any lag. Mid/Late 70's is when they started changing over road rigs to the full throttle delay systems.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:54 am 
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flash7210 wrote:
Many street performance cars like Porches, Supra's, 3000GT's, and
300ZX's have "twin" turbos. Usually one small and one big. The small
one increases power at low RPM while the big one does it at higher RPM.
This reduces a lot of the turbo lag.

Technically, that kind of turbo setup (one small, one large) is called a "Sequential" turbo setup. "Twin" turbo simply means two turbochargers that may or may not be different in size. I'm pretty sure the Supra was the only car you mentioned above with a true "sequential" turbo setup. The others had same-size turbos.. one for each cylinder bank. (v6 or flat 6 as opposed to the Supra's inline 6)

BMW has developed a sequential turbo diesel engine which was designed to reduce the turbo lag mentioned in this thread. http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_2544/article.html

Some turbo cars feature a smaller turbo which will generally spool up quicker which will lessen the lag experience, however, the turbo will quickly max-out and get out of it's efficiency range at higher RPMs. Lots of drag cars feature large turbos that take a while to spool up (or they use alternative methods to artificially turn the turbo to create low-rpm boost) but when they spool they can move large volumes of air at high RPM for maximum power. There's a trade-off to be made. Drivability vs. power. A good example of cars with not much turbo lag would be the Audi 2.0 turbos. (gasoline) My previous 2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII had a large turbo on a 2.0L 4 cylinder. It had massive lag but when the boost hit.. there was no turning back. I ran a 12.0 in the 1/4 mile in it with only an exhaust, K&N filter and my own ECU tune.

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 Post subject: Twin or sequential turbo...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:27 am 
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Saw a TV commercial for the new Ford Super Duty. Specifically their new
two turbo setup saying, "one small turbo for low RPM and one big turbo
for high RPM."
Thought it was interesting

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:06 pm 
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Turbo lag is like a puppy chasing it's tail. Nothing happens until the first turn and the faster the tail goes, the faster the head goes.

You need crankshaft torque to overcome the braking effect of the torque converter and increase engine RPM.

You need engine RPM to make exhaust flow / energy to spin the turbo so the engine can make more torque.

At idle, you have little of either. Pressing the accelerator make the engine put out full (unboosted) torque which increases engine RPM slightly, this increases flow to the turbo, pressurizes the intake system, puts more air into the engine, to which can be added more fuel, making more torque.

This increased torque spins the torque converter input faster and start the vehicle moving. The torque converter torus fluid flow increases, putting more torque to the transmission, accelerating the vehicle and allowing the engine to spin faster.

Clear as mud?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:17 pm 
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It is like mixing a glass of chocolate milk with powdered chocolate mix. The mix just sits there on bottom or top until you start stirring with the spoon (turbo). Once you get it up to speed the chocolate is mixed in and away you go.

Basically it takes power/input to get it started...then you can remove the spoon and it keeps generating power.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:08 pm 
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nix wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
Many street performance cars like Porches, Supra's, 3000GT's, and
300ZX's have "twin" turbos. Usually one small and one big. The small
one increases power at low RPM while the big one does it at higher RPM.
This reduces a lot of the turbo lag.

Technically, that kind of turbo setup (one small, one large) is called a "Sequential" turbo setup. "Twin" turbo simply means two turbochargers that may or may not be different in size. I'm pretty sure the Supra was the only car you mentioned above with a true "sequential" turbo setup. The others had same-size turbos.. one for each cylinder bank. (v6 or flat 6 as opposed to the Supra's inline 6)

BMW has developed a sequential turbo diesel engine which was designed to reduce the turbo lag mentioned in this thread. http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_2544/article.html

Some turbo cars feature a smaller turbo which will generally spool up quicker which will lessen the lag experience, however, the turbo will quickly max-out and get out of it's efficiency range at higher RPMs. Lots of drag cars feature large turbos that take a while to spool up (or they use alternative methods to artificially turn the turbo to create low-rpm boost) but when they spool they can move large volumes of air at high RPM for maximum power. There's a trade-off to be made. Drivability vs. power. A good example of cars with not much turbo lag would be the Audi 2.0 turbos. (gasoline) My previous 2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII had a large turbo on a 2.0L 4 cylinder. It had massive lag but when the boost hit.. there was no turning back. I ran a 12.0 in the 1/4 mile in it with only an exhaust, K&N filter and my own ECU tune.


Thats correct, the mrk4 supra used a sequential turbo setup, the 300zx uses a parallel turbo setup.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:36 pm 
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danoid wrote:
Turbo lag is like a puppy chasing it's tail. Nothing happens until the first turn and the faster the tail goes, the faster the head goes.

You need crankshaft torque to overcome the braking effect of the torque converter and increase engine RPM.

You need engine RPM to make exhaust flow / energy to spin the turbo so the engine can make more torque.

At idle, you have little of either. Pressing the accelerator make the engine put out full (unboosted) torque which increases engine RPM slightly, this increases flow to the turbo, pressurizes the intake system, puts more air into the engine, to which can be added more fuel, making more torque.

This increased torque spins the torque converter input faster and start the vehicle moving. The torque converter torus fluid flow increases, putting more torque to the transmission, accelerating the vehicle and allowing the engine to spin faster.

Clear as mud?


I would argue that turbo lag is not related to the torque converter or transmission at all. I had a Ram 2500 Cummins with the 6-spd manual, and it had plenty of turbo lag, even with the clutch pressed in (neutral). Granted, an auto tranny may add its own lag due to spinning up the TC, but that is not related to the turbo, or even engine lag. Also, temperature plays a big part. When the engine, oil, and fuel are cold, there is a LOT more lag as things just won't burn/move as well. When I just started up and its 5*F outside, I can hit the accelerator as hard as I want, but my CRD just won't go until its good and ready. On a day like yesterday, when it was 105*F, that thing moved like a spring chicken.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:56 pm 
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The KJ CRD uses a Garrett VGT turbo with a turbine frame size GT20. This turbo is too large for the engine displacement and leads to the delay in spool up of the compressor. The better turbo would be the GT17, which is used on many Volkswagon diesels in Europe. The smaller turbine cross-sectional area allows the compressor to build boost at about 300 rpm lower than the GT20, so the drive-away is more responsive. The problem with the VGT for after-market use is that a separate controller would be needed to move the vanes since the production control would not be optimized for a smaller turbo. Additionally, VGT control needs to be adjusted in altitude conditions to prevent overspeeding the turbo. Just a side note, the GT20 max rpm is around 170,000 rpm and the GT17 is around 200,000 rpm.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:28 pm 
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Dr. Diesel wrote:
The KJ CRD uses a Garrett VGT turbo with a turbine frame size GT20. This turbo is too large for the engine displacement and leads to the delay in spool up of the compressor. The better turbo would be the GT17, which is used on many Volkswagon diesels in Europe. The smaller turbine cross-sectional area allows the compressor to build boost at about 300 rpm lower than the GT20, so the drive-away is more responsive. The problem with the VGT for after-market use is that a separate controller would be needed to move the vanes since the production control would not be optimized for a smaller turbo. Additionally, VGT control needs to be adjusted in altitude conditions to prevent overspeeding the turbo. Just a side note, the GT20 max rpm is around 170,000 rpm and the GT17 is around 200,000 rpm.


So it sounds to me like we are running a larger turbo to produce more power at cost of spoolup time.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:07 am 
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I think every cause of lag has been touched on here. Good discussion. To summerize:

Lag is subjective and can be caused by many things. Turbo lag is intrinsic to all turbos. Turbo performance is always a compromise. Smaller ex. housing better spooling but higher drive pressure and EGTs on top end. Bigger is better for top end performance. That's why twins (compound/sequential) turbos came about. Best of both world. If you really want to see lag, watch a 1000hp sled puller with a large single. Some of those don't light up until well after 2000rpm. (but they run down the track at over 4K.) Maybe the CRDs turbo is a bit big (looks tiny to me), but as mentioned, it would be a headache to change it out with all the electronic controls. It's odd that this turbo would be big from the factory sense most of the time stock turbos are too small (emissions again). Turbo lag is problematic not only for performance reasons, but also emmisions. That's the reason for the VGT in all the new diesel. Ford opted for twins instead. Not sure how that's gonna work. Very complicated for a stock work truck plus they have them backwards (small turbo first).

Engine tuning: The injection timing has a lot to do with how quick a diesel gets going (and lights the turbo). For many years now, due to the EPA, diesels have had retarded timing for emmisions. This makes it take longer to get the engine rolling. Timing also changes related to throttle position. At low rpm, heavy throttle, more retarded timing. Ever notice how if you stomp it, it takes longer to get going in the first second that if you just ease into it. If you want to improve this on a modern diesel, get a module that advances timing. (Plus you'll get better mileage and lower smoke.)

In addition to timing, is torque managment. The manufactorers tunes the fuel delivery so as to be gentle to all. The ecm fuels slowly off the line and defuels at shifts to save the tranny. That's so grandma can't accidently smoke the tires and loss control on a wet road. There are programs out now for the truck market that modify or elimate the TM altogether. This allows more fueling down low and great throttle response, faster spool and big fun factor. Trade off is more low end/low boost smoke and very hard on tranny.

The outside conditions have effects also. Not just the temp of the fuel, intake air temp, etc. itself, but the ecm changes parameters (such as timing) based on air temp, engine temp, etc.

Transmissons also has an effect. In an auto, a looser torque convertor will get you off the line quicker but at the expense of everything beyond a few 100 ft off the line. A tighter TC will take longer to get everything going but will do very well once up to speed. My 01 Dodge is somewhat over geared for the tire size and has a tight TC. Is a little doggy off the line. In addition, the gear selection makes a difference also. Again with the Dodge (but I think this is common in all Chryslers), the tranny will not shift 3-2 based on speed. (It will based on throttle position, but not speed). It will shift 3-1 at 10 mph. So, when I turn a corner and slow to 15 mph or so, it's in 3rd gear. With the gearing and TC it is a total dog. So I have to give it enough throttle to make it shift 3-2. Anyway, while the tranny is shifting/figuring out what gear to be in, there is some lag. No matter what tranny you have, if you punch it in mid shift, there will lag.

I think that is everything I can think for now. As you can see, there are many things that can cause the subjective lag. So if you want to get rid of lag: advance timing, small or compound turbo, low gearing, cool intake air, warm engine and change the torque mangement. :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:14 am 
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DarbyWalters wrote:
It is like mixing a glass of chocolate milk with powdered chocolate mix. The mix just sits there on bottom or top until you start stirring with the spoon (turbo). Once you get it up to speed the chocolate is mixed in and away you go.

Basically it takes power/input to get it started...then you can remove the spoon and it keeps generating power.
After reading this I had to stop and go mix myself a chocolate milk and have a blueberry donut. :wink: :D

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