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Fuel Additive Question
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24142		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  litton [ Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Fuel Additive Question
I've been very diligent in using Power Serve additive since I'v owned the CRD. However, now that ULSD is more common, is it still necesary....and if so why.
Author:  vtdog [ Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:48 am ]
Post subject: 
In my opinion it was NEVER necessary
Author:  UFO [ Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:54 am ]
Post subject: 
After seeing this lubricity study, I would think one should always use a lubricity additive. BTW, 2% biodiesel ranked best by a factor of 2 over nearly everything else, and some appear to make lubricity WORSE. The national standard for ULSD is 520, and I understand that Stanadyne and other pump manufacturers would prefer something on the order of 400 for longer pump life.

http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728

Image
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:55 am ]
Post subject: 
It does have "BioSlick" (or whatever they call it) which is basically BioDiesel. That will help with lubrication. A little Bio goes a long way. Don't know if the Cetane boost really works anymore with the ULSD since it has a higher cetane rating than the LSD had. If you run any B2-B5 , you could probably do without the PS. I usually mix some B20 with 3/4 tank of ULSD...seems to purr just fine.

You just have to look at the price per gallon of PS or others and figure adding B2-5 is a better deal.
Author:  msilbernagel [ Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've been looking as MSDS for those things on and off for some time, and also in the past few days. Guess I tend to geek out on projects... 8)

There seem to be three significant classes of ingredients in them all:

Solvents. which for most mean some form of naptha (stoddard solvent, white spirits, coleman fuel, lighter fluid, etc). If they're not winter additives, they use the heavier distillates which are more like mineral oil and contribute more to lubricity, rather than reduce it.

Detergents/dispersants/surficants (Soap): Where you see things (e.g. Stanadyne, AMSOil, etc) like trimethylbensenes, xylols, cumene, ethyl benzenes, and friends. You also see these in insecticides performing the same function, btw.

Cetane improvers: The two biggies are 2EHN and Octi-something (Amsoil). Fuels vary widely in 'sensitivity' (effectiveness) to these additives, depending upon the stock and how much as already been added by the supply chain.

The solvents/detergents are what helps you with gel-point lowering in cold weather - keeping waxes in solution, and help "clean" the injectors also... Cetane improvers help with cold starts.

If all you want is to protect your pumps, as the study shows, a gallon of biodiesel (or a modest container of wesson oil) does more than all of them.


Mark
==


UFO wrote:
After seeing this lubricity study, I would think one should always use a lubricity additive. BTW, 2% biodiesel ranked best by a factor of 2 over nearly everything else, and some appear to make lubricity WORSE. The national standard for ULSD is 520, and I understand that Stanadyne and other pump manufacturers would prefer something on the order of 400 for longer pump life.
Author:  Cowpie1 [ Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree, that bio is the best way to add lubricity.

Additives just for that purpose are not really needed. Just use bio. But various addtives will also to all the other good things that bio can't. Like control gelling (waxing), control water, etc.

I have used Howe's year round for over 2 decades, including Alaska, in my semis, farm equipment, and my CRD. Power Service and some others are not bad either.

Guess it all depends on what you want out of an additive. None are required or are the "cure all" for diesel.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:30 am ]
Post subject: 
Cost wise the outboard motor 2 cycle TC-3 oil looks good to me :lol: The nearest B20 source is 25 miles away for me :cry: Darby, not doubting you but where does it say ULSD is of a highter cetane rating :?: I've been looking for the specs for it but can't find anything solid :roll: I can tell it varies tank to tank and the only pump I've seen it listed on says "40 minimum"

Thanks
Joe
Author:  BiodieselJeep.com [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  A little biodiesel goes a long(er) way!
Biodiesel has a lower energy content per gallon (as much 5-10% lower energy content than LSD depending on the study you read), so using it straight you get less mileage. Trust me, it can be noticed when geeking hard on the figures!

However, biodiesel is a great oxygenate (lots of oxygen in the grease) which improves combustion like many additives. And there is probably a bump from the lubricity. So there is an optimal mix for mileage....2-5%biodiesel increases mileage as much as 2-5% in most studies (as I recall), and some extreme studies show 5-8% improvement.

So, a little biodiesel goes a long(er) way!
Author:  bugnout [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:42 am ]
Post subject: 
So Lubricity is just one aspect that these additives address, but may be the most important for the life of the fuel pump ($3K). Anti gel is ussually addressed by the winter blend fuel, Cetan boost is a valid goal as well, not sure if they make an additive that just addresses cetan boost but sounds like the BioD may give you a bump there anyway.

2%-5%, so two quarts of BioD will treat a 20 gallon tank of ULSD at 2.5%, thats something less than $1.50 a tank, no more than the cost of 100 Diesel.
I also like the 2 cycle oil route, I've seen it for $1 a pint. 13 oz in 20 gallons will give you the 200:1 he used for the study. The full pint will be about 160:1 which is probably ok as well. Seems His study was done with the 26 gallon GMC tank in mind so most of the mixes were convienent to that size, thats why he picked 2% BioD and 200:1 for the oil.

This is a very interesting study, and looks to be well done. I think I'm going to stop using PS and try some BioD for a while.
Author:  dgeist [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A little biodiesel goes a long(er) way!
BiodieselJeep.com wrote:
However, biodiesel is a great oxygenate (lots of oxygen in the grease) which improves combustion like many additives. And there is probably a bump from the lubricity. So there is an optimal mix for mileage....2-5%biodiesel increases mileage as much as 2-5% in most studies (as I recall), and some extreme studies show 5-8% improvement.

So, a little biodiesel goes a long(er) way!


Hmm, perhaps that's why I have a much worse time with air in filter when I use B100 :)
Author:  GregScuba [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Will pouring Wesson veggie oil in the tank really be safe? and will it really work as well as Bio-D ? I live in Florida, so gelling is not a problem.
Author:  UFO [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
I personally would never add straight vegetable oil into the CRD in any concentration. But I have access to B100.
Author:  GregScuba [ Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:15 am ]
Post subject: 
The other one I wonder about is the TC-W3 outboard/2-cycle oil? Could this be safe?
Author:  Joe Romas [ Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:04 am ]
Post subject: 
GregScuba wrote:
The other one I wonder about is the TC-W3 outboard/2-cycle oil? Could this be safe?


2 cycle outboard oil is designed to lubricate the engine then burn cleanly in the combustion chamber. Our diesels run by burning oil, diesel oil :lol: I once had the opportunity to examine a catalitic converter out of a 92 VW jetta ECHOdiesel with 200,000 plus miles on it. The owner religiously used transmission fluid and power service in it. Transmission fluid is not meant to be burned but was once thought to be good for diesl pumps. That speaks highly of older Bosch pump. There was only one small area of the cat that showed any signs of being plugged :P
Author:  onthehunt [ Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
I would not put two-stroke oil in any common-rail diesel. Especially dino two-stoke oil.
Author:  bugnout [ Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think the issue of concern with using 2 stroke oil in a Common Rail fuel system is that the fuel pump compresses the fuel and in doing so superheats it before being injected into the cylinder. How will it TC-W3 respond to being compressed and heated to a really high temp under pressure? Will this damage the pump or the injectors over time? Will it damage the injectors? Unless we can find someone who knows what goes in 2 stroke oil, Theres no way to know for sure.

For other types of diesel fuel systems the fuel is not compressed as agressively. Thats one of the reasons it was in consideration for the study, it was done by and for the duramax crowd that has a long history and a range of models and fuel systems.

It might be safe, It might not. Someone would have to do an analysis under these conditions to really know. Its not recommended by Bosch or anyone else, but IMHO I don't think it would be a big deal. I just recently learned that in Europe, thier pump diesel contains as much as 30% gasoline during winter. :shock: Now I bet 16oz of 2 stroke oil is nothing compared to gas. BUT, I don't really know what they put in 2 stroke oil....
Author:  onthehunt [ Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:02 am ]
Post subject: 
I think it is the high combustion temps on an egr diesel that lead to carbon build up with two-stroke oil. Plus I don't think you would want it in your egr or cac system.
Author:  GregScuba [ Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:04 am ]
Post subject: 
http://www.nmma.org/certification/programs/oils/
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