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F37 CSN and EGR/FCV reprogramming
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24854		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  T^2 [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  F37 CSN and EGR/FCV reprogramming
So, I've once again had to take the CRD back to the dealer for EGR and EGR FCV issues. This will be the 3rd EGR that will be replaced and the 2nd FCV.

Of course my vehicle is out of warranty (~42k on odometer). That said I talked the dealer into going to bat for me with DCX to get this covered under warranty (since DCX has really never successfully fixed this problem under previous warranty work).

The dealer only replaced the FCV this time around. Like so many stories before me, I only got a few blocks from the dealer before the CEL came back on. I was not surprised. I should have told them to drive it around for a few miles before I came to pick it up. That would have saved me some time. I turned around and took it right back. I suspect that they'll have to replace the EGR too. In fact that last time I had this issue the dealer replaced the EGR only. I got a few blocks away that time and had to go back. They ended up replacing the FCV too.

I talked to the diesel tech while I was at the dealer. The topic of my refusing to have the F37 work done came up. The tech tells me that the software flash that is part of the F37 CSN also contains new code to addresses the EGR and EGR FCV issues. According to the tech, the old code would command the FCV beyond its stops causing it to eventually fail. He said that unless I got the F37 CSN work performed, I would continue to have this problem. He says that there has been no further EGR related problems with the CRD's that he has done the F37 CSN on.

Of course the dealer warned me that this is the last time that they are going to cover this work, since I refuse to have the F37 CSN done. They said to consider it a courtesy this time.

So what do you folks think? Is it plausible that the F37 CSN cured the EGR and EGR FCV issues? Are the EGR and EGR FCV doomed to repeated failure without the F37 CSN?

I didn't mention that I had purchased a SEGR kit here. That brings me to another question. Since the FCV is reconnected to the CPU while in park, is it possible that CPU could still command the FCV beyond its stops and eventually cause the FCV to fail? The invoices that I've got back say that the FCV gears were stuck causing failure. I have no idea exactly what position the butterfly was in when it failed. I suspect - based on performance - that the butterfly was partially closed.

Any thoughts?
Author:  Cowcatcher [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:48 am ]
Post subject: 
There are a lot of us here without the F37 who have had no problem and I think the F37 programing is only for the TCM which I don't think should have nothing to do with the emissions system
Author:  RFCRD [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:15 am ]
Post subject: 
Cowcatcher wrote:
There are a lot of us here without the F37 who have had no problem and I think the F37 programing is only for the TCM which I don't think should have nothing to do with the emissions system

This computer mouse-trap has the TCM acting as a primary gateway and controlling the ECM much of the time. This is the reason all the TSBs to date start by reflashing the TCM, then the ECM....and if like mine, dead-in-the-water until the TCM is replaced with new (pre-loaded) or ba$tard-flashed using another customer's vehicle as a host. Both computers have to work together to deliver whatever is needed for emissions.

What should be realized is the performance parameters that give a CEL are adjustable (locked away within the software). It it more likely the TSB reflashes, including the F31 & F37, have the sensitivity to being out of spec tweeked so it doesn't give a CEL as frequently. Depending on ones viewpoint, this is either an improvement or a form of warranty claim control.
Author:  BankNote4X4 [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  JUST TRYING TO HELP
Try PM'ing MrMopar64. If you ever go with a suncoast converter you'll be much better off w/o the f37. Those of us that have are now trying to figure out how to change the tcm programing and it isn't going well so far.
Author:  DZL_LOU [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: F37 CSN and EGR/FCV reprogramming
T^2 wrote:
According to the tech, the old code would command the FCV beyond its stops causing it to eventually fail. He said that unless I got the F37 CSN work performed, I would continue to have this problem. He says that there has been no further EGR related problems with the CRD's that he has done the F37 CSN on.



All techs are component swappers. At no point does the tech either through the TSB information or going through CRD tech school in Auburn Hulls gain information about particular parametric coding changes.

You have about as much knowledge of what specific software parameters DCX changed in F37 as the diesel tech does.

All the tech is doing is looking to do here round out his/her time card repair order time with warranty work. They can set the F37 software to down load and either go have a smoke and a Red Bull on the remainder of the time on the ticket, or work on another repair order at the same time as your and stack hours.
Author:  retmil46 [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:20 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree with DZL LOU - this sounds and smells like a load of BS.

Easy way to check - look in the phone book and call the service manager at another dealership, simply ask them if F37 has anything to do with EGR operation. Call 2 or 3 just to get a good sample.

First possibility - tech and/or someone else is trying to pad their time card as DZL LOU suggests.

Second possibility - tech and dealership may simply be regurgitating what's come down from above, may be another standard reflash past F37 that supposedly addresses EGR operation. But as was suggested above, this may be nothing more than a version of the coolant temp gauge TSB - basically, they programmed the coolant temp gauge to lie and stay at 12 oclock until well past 200 F - that will keep the CEL off and no codes thrown even if the EGR and FCV are malfunctioning. No CEL and no codes, no problem and no warranty work performed.

Third possibility - Powers that be are wise to the ORM and SEGR (I'd be surprised if they weren't, the way it's been publicly bandied about online), and this reflash is to prevent the owner from doing either, crippling the vehicle or putting it into limp mode if it detects an attempt to defeat the EGR.

From checking other forums, some people have went thru as many as 8 EGR valves at this point. Old saying in the Navy - "make it happen or make it go away" - ie, fix the problem or sweep it under the rug - someone may have finally decided they can't make it happen and now they're going to make it go away.

The saying they have over on TDR, "you are your own warranty station", has an entirely different meaning with this vehicle.
Author:  LocoCRD [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:27 am ]
Post subject: 
Sounds like BS to me as well. If there was a problem like this I'm sure we would have heard of a few FCV's failing before the F37 neutering of our rides.
Author:  T^2 [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Well one thing has been consistent. The invoice has said the same thing both times about the FCV - the gears are stuck.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I've not bothered to look into this), but it seems to me that the FCV would be fully closed when the PWM is ~ 100% (duty cycle) and fully open when the PWM is 0%. The only time that you would have 100% would be during shut down - at least that I'm aware of. Burning up the solenoid seems unlikely then. The solenoid may get burnt up as an after effect (due to stuck gears), but doesn't sound likely to be the root cause.

I didn't see either of the failed FCV's from my vehicle. I wonder in what position they got stuck. Where they fully open are partially opened?

You can't stop the FCV from going to fully open (presumably at 0%) - you have to shut the vehicle off some time. You only cause the FCV to fully shut during shut down. If there is anything credible about what the tech says, then this is when you might "command the FCV beyond it's stops". If so, you might think that this is where the valve would get stuck – fully closed. Is it possible that the valve fully closes at somewhere less than 100% modulation, but the ECM drives it with 100% modulation causing it to be overdriven (eventually burning it up)? Of course this function is still allowed with the SEGR. Is it possible that this problem could still arise?

Then again, the invoices say the gears get stuck. The first time this happened they said the valve was literally frozen. What might be causing that? Anybody who has looked at the thing have an idea?

Whatever is going on, I'd like to prevent it from happening again. I'm hoping that the SEGR will get me there.

Ok enough rambling...
Author:  Cowcatcher [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:45 am ]
Post subject: 
I probably should keep my trap shut 'cause I am an absolute novice! :lol: However, it seemed to me that there were early FCV gear failures on the '05's due to plastic gears and that the gears were replaced on later models with metal gears eliminating the problems.

It also seems to me that after late '05 the numbers of FCV and EGR failure dropped significantly and even more so after the ORM. Soem CRD owners like you had persistent problems with multiple EGR and FCV failures but today it seems like it is a less frequent failure. It would be nice to determine why some have multiple failures and others have none.
Author:  T^2 [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well my CRD is an '05 and the FCV was replaced early on. It's possible then that I got an older plastic gear variant as a replacement when they did the repair.

If Cowcatcher is right about the gear upgrade to metal, then that would go a long way towards reducing my concerns. That is - if I can determine that the currently failed FCV had plastic gears.

I’m going to have to probe the diesel tech on a few questions.
Author:  T^2 [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just as an aside - I also talked to the diesel tech about the CCV and Provent issues.

The tech said he was well aware of the VW TDI having problems with build up in the intakes. He said that he has looked at a few high mileage CRD's and has yet to see any significant build up. In his opinion, it isn't really necessary to put an oil separator in the CCV line on this vehicle.
Author:  retmil46 [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Cowcatcher wrote:
I probably should keep my trap shut 'cause I am an absolute novice! :lol: However, it seemed to me that there were early FCV gear failures on the '05's due to plastic gears and that the gears were replaced on later models with metal gears eliminating the problems.


I seem to remember that discussion as well, plastic vs metal gears.

My theory - the FCV's are simply getting gummed up from a combination of oil and soot, essentially jamming the beast up. Perhaps not to the point it won't operate, but at least to the point that the increased load on the motor and gearing are causing things to go south.

Mine's a May '05 build, 24.5K miles, one EGR at 13K, ORM somewhere prior to 18K. Still have the original FCV with no problems. And no, I definitely HAVE NOT had F37 done, I have the last reflash prior to F31/F37.

But one thing I've done on mine, basically every oil change I've removed the intercooler hoses and cleaned them out, and also cleaned out the FCV valve, as far past the flapper as I could reach and the flapper itself, making sure there wasn't any oil or gunk in the way that could jam it up.
Author:  gmctd [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
That tech must have been looking at the intake in the airbox, then - any number of posts on the intake manifold MAP sensor, with pics, indicate a big problem with soot buildup in the intake system - pull yours and show it to the tech for a really big surprise.

DZL_LOU's excellent pictorials on the EGR valve and the FCV\TCV aptly demonstrate the heavy buildup in the intake system - tech must be living in Africa, somewhere - you know.......he's in de Nile..................
Author:  T^2 [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Helpful to the discussion:

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=13215
Author:  T^2 [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
So has anybody ever determined the most likely cause of failure of the FCV?
Author:  gmctd [ Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Dunno, but I'm just dyin' to get some hands-on with both those devices for mechanical = the valves, and electrical = solenoid and servo, diagnosis.

I'll soon be pulling the set from my son's Jeep for intake system cleanup - also wanna make absolutely sure the EGR can fully close, and the FCV\TCV is fully open - but wouldn't be too good for the 100kmi warranty if destructive testing becomes necessary, eh?

If anyone has access to any available specimens, please let me know - tia.
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