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 Post subject: Valve rocker replacement questions. chewed up valve stem end
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:20 pm
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Location: West Georgia
I bought a non-running 05 CRD sport from a fellow member. It had suspected lifter failure. I figured it would be easier to fix than my 05 CRD sport.
Or it could be used for parts to fix mine if it had dropped a valve or something.

I turned it over by hand a few times and would get a strange click or bell ringing noise every other full rotation.
followed timing belt replacement procedure, cam and crank lock pins all went in Ok.
engine was in time.

Pulled the valve cover and found 4 rockers off. 1 had the lifter bent over. All have a lot of play on the bearing. All lifters came out of their bores OK.

One valve stem has a little bit of damage on the end. Its a cylinder #3 exhaust valve.
The 1st pic looks worse than it really is.
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


I can catch my finger nail on it running from the front of the engine to the back. But I can't feel it or catch a nail on it from side to side.
I think if I polish it with some emery cloth I can get it crazy smooth and the hydraulic lifter will take up the slack.

Is this a safe/best course of action?

I have not bought any parts or extra tool for this yet. I plan on replacing all the lifters and doing a new timeing belt and all the associated bits(tensioners idlers pump serp belt ect). The injector bores are in really bad shape too and I plan on getting the o-rings and copper washer plus the seat cutting tool.

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 Post subject: Re: Valve rocker replacement questions. chewed up valve stem
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:48 pm 
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The big question that must be answered.
How many miles on the 05?
If the mileage is anywhere over the 150k+ mark, you should go ahead and pull the head and replace all the exhaust valves while you are already in to it this deep.
There have been quite a few reports of an exhaust valve stem breaking off in higher mileage engines, and when it does, it will certainly do catastrophic damage to the head and the top of the piston. In a few incidences, the broken valve causes damage (cracking) to the cylinder liner and engine block itself thus rendering it unusable for rebuild. A couple have even caused a broken rod which punched a hole out the side of the engine block.

Bottom line, certainly not worth the risk to skip replacing the exhaust valves while you have it apart. :wink:
And most owners opt for the stronger ARP head studs and a new head gasket when you R&R the head.

In your case, if the engine mileage is low and there is no real need to pull the head, you can polish the top of the valve real good and the hydraulic rocker damper will compensate for the slight difference in valve stem height. You can even replace each of the engine head bolts ONE AT A TIME with the ARP head studs without pulling the head.
Plenty of reading about exhaust valve issues and replacing head bolts with ARP head studs on this forum if you do a search.

All the parts you will need like rockers/dampers, ARP studs, head gasket, timing belt parts, etc...to rebuild the top end of the engine is available at IDParts.com
LINK:> IDParts.com

Be sure and replace the water pump, timing belt, belt idler pulleys, rocker arms, tensioner pulley, etc...while you have the engine apart. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Valve rocker replacement questions. chewed up valve stem
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:07 pm 
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Location: West Georgia
OK more complete back story.

I have been a lost member since 2012 when I purchased my 1st CRD. Which I still own but it was run without oil and is repurposed as a parts jeep. It has around 130K on it.

The jeep I purchased last week(the one i"m working on) is the vehicle in this thread. Same year, trim, color as the parts jeep.
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=90476

The head has been changed on this jeep so I need to determine when that was.
The jeep's current mileage is 227K.

The valve cover does have damage from whom ever changed the head or last timing belt change. The top of the hole for the intake lock pin is basically ripped out. It was glued in place with grey RTV. The threads still engage well enough so it worked.

I plan on not cutting to many corners. Though I did want to reuse the valve cover gasket. It's in pretty good shape. I'm trying to build a daily driver/family weekend trip machine out of this jeep. I want to get the engine running solid, so I can start vetting the rest of the system. Most look to be in good shape and I have the parts jeep just in case.

So what would be the outline of a proper R&R on the head? I'm assuming a trip to a machine shop is involved. I could take both my valve covers with cams and have them find the best possible set. It would be nice to have a top end free from EGR gunk build up.

Are the valve available a new design or updated manufacturing process? Or is this just something to add to the 100K mile maintenance routine?

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05 KJ CRD mostly stock currently under the knife
05 KJ CRD mostly stock
18 Ram 3500 crewcab flatbed
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 Post subject: Re: Valve rocker replacement questions. chewed up valve stem
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:57 am 
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To my knowledge the valves are not any different than what came from the factory. But so far we have not seen or read of any reports of a failed/broken exhaust valve after replacing them with the newer ones.

We don't know for sure exactly what causes the exhaust valve failures or when exactly it will happen. Lots of speculation including it was a simply a bad batch of valves purchased by VM Motori or the EGR system dumping all that soot through the combustion chamber is sandblasting the exhaust valve stems causing metal exfoliation from the stem.
High EGTs could be causing the metal in the valve stems to crystalize and make them become brittle or fatigued and / or elongated and cause failure after being exposed to so many cycles of operation.

What we have learned is; the valves fail in the critical area where the valve stem is connected to the valve's mushroom head. This is a clean break and usually happens when the engine gets somewhere in the neighborhood of the 200k mark. But on the other hand, some owners have reported going well over 200k with no reported failures. So there is no consistency which makes it even harder to predict when a valve failure will occur.

Some of the failed valves have been tested by a metallurgist and it was found the stem simply separated from the head. Not due to stress cracking according to the report.
Bottom line, the "ROOT" cause is still up for debate or conjecture. :banghead:

Link to:> Full Metallurgist Test Report
Quote:
Conclusion from metallurgist tests:
High cycle fatigue was concluded to be a possible mechanism of failure. A future inspection of the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) equipment may provide further evidence for the cause of this shortened valve life.


One thing for sure; if you have to pull your head for any reason, it's some mighty cheap insurance to replace the exhaust valves verses suffering a catastrophic engine failure due to a broken exhaust valve. :juggle: Some broken valves have not only destroyed the head and piston, but destroyed the entire engine making it totally unusable. A big piece of junk!
If you want to read through the entire thread on valve failure, it is here, kinda long but lots of information.
Valve failure research thread - We need your data! - Lost Jeeps

An excerpt from the earlier post link above posted back in 2018:
Quote:
Valves usually break due to age, fatigue1, and a combination of environmental2 conditions to which they are exposed. Exhaust valves are repeatedly loaded and unloaded as they open and close, they can fatigue earlier than normal if the environmental conditions to which they are exposed to are severe enough. These conditions can be a combination of temperature, stress and a corrosive environment. If any of these conditions are excessive, the valve will break its weakest point.

(1) In materials science, fatigue is the weakening of a material caused by repeatedly applied loads. It is the progressive and localized structural damage that occurs when a material is subjected to cyclic loading. The nominal maximum stress values that cause such damage may be much less than the strength of the material typically quoted as the ultimate tensile stress limit, or the yield stress limit.

(2) Deposits formed on an exhaust valve can be due to the reaction of fuel-borne or airborne contaminants and lubricating oil created during the combustion process as well as the reaction of combustion products with valve materials themselves (chemical). Build-up of deposits on the valve tends to have an insulating effect that can limit critical valve metal cooling (heat transfer) and can make the valve run much hotter than normal which can lead to hot corrosion or exfoliation of the valve stem material.

We know from experience by many on this forum who have suffered timing belt failures just how tough the valves themselves are as many have made severe contact with the top of a piston hitting it hard enough to break or crack rocker arms without sustaining any valve failures in the process. With this history, I believe it rules out valve failure simply caused by contact?

So this leaves failure by some other means or process. Manufacturing defects have been discussed but not entirely ruled out. I think valve stem cracking was ruled out as well in some of the past tests reported? Stated failures are clean breaks between the valve stem and valve mushroom head?
I still believe that the high soot loading these exhaust valves are exposed to from the EGR system may be a contributing factor in their failure, be it chemical as described above or mechanical from abrasives created from the soot and combustion process and possible exfoliation of the valve stem material, or a combination of both.

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 Post subject: Re: Valve rocker replacement questions. chewed up valve stem
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 5:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:20 pm
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Location: West Georgia
I think what i'm asking is.

Do I dis-assemble the head and take everything to the machine shop with new parts. Asking for an R&R on the head while installing new exhaust valves.
OR can I dis-assemble the head and put new exhaust and old intake valves in myself and use lapping compound on them?

I'm guessing all the retaining hardware used on the cams should be replaced with new.

Can the valve keepers and spring retainers be reused?
and not replacing the valve seals would be pretty stupid.

So I'm looking at this set of parts from IDparts.

8x exhaust valves.
valve stem seal set
Seal, plugs and snap rings for the cams. The super service kit seems to option the plugs but claim they are out of stock. but in stock for single plugs.

the super service kit with rockers and ARP head studs add intake and exhaust gaskets and hardware.
or head install kit with rockers and the timing belt kit.

Its unclear whether the super service kit or timing belt kit come with serp belt idler pulleys after adding the serp belt tensioner as an option.

Am I missing anything?

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05 KJ CRD JBA 2.5in lift waiting on an engine rebuild
05 KJ CRD mostly stock currently under the knife
05 KJ CRD mostly stock
18 Ram 3500 crewcab flatbed
kubota M6800


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 Post subject: Re: Valve rocker replacement questions. chewed up valve stem
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:28 pm 
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dimedriver wrote:
I think what i'm asking is.
Answers in Blue Text
Do I dis-assemble the head and take everything to the machine shop with new parts. Asking for an R&R on the head while installing new exhaust valves.
OR can I dis-assemble the head and put new exhaust and old intake valves in myself and use lapping compound on them?
If you don't suspect a cracked head, no need to take to machine shop, you can pull the exhaust valves, lap in the new ones yourself using lapping compound.
If you don't see any evidence of a leaking intake valve, I would leave them alone. No need to mess with them.
And this head by design is not supposed to be milled, very little extra metal on the combustion chamber. The Factory Service Manual actually states NOT to machine the head.


I'm guessing all the retaining hardware used on the cams should be replaced with new.
Not sure what hardware you are referring to?

Can the valve keepers and spring retainers be reused?
If the hardware is not damaged, reuse it, it has already stood the test of time, so you know it is good. No need to replace with new!

and not replacing the valve seals would be pretty stupid.
On this engine, the seals don't serve much purpose since the intake never goes under a vacuum. Seals are to keep oil out, not combustion in. Actually a little oil on the guides is a good thing.

So I'm looking at this set of parts from IDparts.

8x exhaust valves.
valve stem seal set (don't need)
Seal, plugs and snap rings for the cams. The super service kit seems to option the plugs but claim they are out of stock. but in stock for single plugs.

the super service kit with rockers and ARP head studs add intake and exhaust gaskets and hardware.
or head install kit with rockers and the timing belt kit.

Its unclear whether the super service kit or timing belt kit come with serp belt idler pulleys after adding the serp belt tensioner as an option.
The Timing Belt Kit comes with the 2 idler pulleys
Quote:
Timing Belt Kit (Liberty CRD) IDParts Expert Kit
This kit includes:
Timing Belt (can be upgraded to a heavy duty belt)
OE Litens Timing Belt Tensioner
OE NTN Timing Belt Rollers (Qty 2)
European Market GRAF Water Pump w/ METAL impeller (OE VM Water pumps available too, though we recommend and use the Graf pumps ourselves)
Water Pump Gaskets & Seals
*Gates Serpentine Belt
Timing Belt Tensioner Bolt

Quote:
The The Serpentine Belt Kit includes:
*Gates Serpentine Belt
Litens Serpentine Belt Tensioner
2 Serpentine Belt Roller Idlers

Am I missing anything?
*Since both kits list a Serpentine Belt, I would call them and get them to back one of the belts out to save a few dollars.
or simply buy the timing belt kit and then the serpentine belt tensioner and 2 idler pulleys separate. :wink:



Hope I addressed all your questions? :juggle:

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
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Samcos/ProVent
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Carter Intank-pmp
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 Post subject: Re: Valve rocker replacement questions. chewed up valve stem
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:20 pm
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Location: West Georgia
Ok, I've made further progress.
Funds have cleared, the head is off, and I've ordered most of the parts.

I think i've lost or the mechanic that changed the head for the original owner lost one of the head to valve cover alignment dowels.
Image

Image

Where can I buy one of these dowels? I believe the dowel is also an oil passage to feed oil to the cam journals.

Next I notices a scratch on the exhaust cam cylinder 2. I can feel it and catch it on my finger nail.

Image

Can I just polish this out?

How do I remove the cams? I think the process is. remove the front oil seals which gains access to the retaining ring. I guess once the ring is removed they slide out the back of the valve cover. How are the seals and plugs removed from valve cover without the VM tool?

Also what is the recommended way to clean out the intake passages while I have this out and apart? I was planning of removing the cams and then hitting the outside of the valve cover with a pressure washer. Could it also work for the intake passages? I have also heard that acetone works well on the EGR gunk build up.

-Thanks

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05 KJ CRD JBA 2.5in lift waiting on an engine rebuild
05 KJ CRD mostly stock currently under the knife
05 KJ CRD mostly stock
18 Ram 3500 crewcab flatbed
kubota M6800


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