Racor Fuel Filter Unit

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:24 pm

While it would not be operational you could remove the puck from the OEM and secure it somewhere with the temp sensor plugged in reading ambient.

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:26 pm

Right - I am thinking it can be made operational with slight modification, but I need some hands-on for that

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:37 pm

Part of this is recreating the wheel as someone I think has already tested and installed the filter and made the sensor work. Don't recall who it was.

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:45 pm

Iirc, Steve was planning an Omega sensor - they're about 65bucks - if any others have been there\done that, the show'n'tell post would be most helpful to all - I'm planning for the Cummins manager, because top-loading is ever so much more convenient

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:48 pm

gmctd wrote:

Iirc, Steve was planning an Omega sensor - they're about 65bucks - if any others have been there\done that, the show'n'tell post would be most helpful to all - I'm planning for the Cummins manager, because top-loading is ever so much more convenient

Can you post a pic and a price?

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:50 pm

Soon's I can get it in front my kid's camera, sometime this week

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

I am dubious of trying to adapt a Cummins or Duramax filter to our application. It just seems like trying to come up with a $50 dollar solution to a 10 cent problem.

Mr. Mopar often speaks cryptically (out of necessity), but his caution about lift pumps and our CP3 makes me want a solution that keeps as much of our stock design intact as possible. If a Racor filter head is an easy, fairly cheap, bolt-on solution, why jump through hoops to come up with something different?

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:28 pm

The Racor eliminates the top-mounted fuel heater\temp sensor puck, which becomes a problem as the heater damages the thermo-plastic mold-seal - still is a top-feed\top-draw head, where the complete filter cannister must be replaced from the bottom, once you get the WIF attachment\heater bowl off - just seems to me a top-loaded permanent aluminum head\cannister with removeable filter element and top feed\bottom draw would be the better solution.

It has no provision for self-prime, but also does not lose the total load of fuel at filter replacement

It is much easier to remove the top cap, pull the filter element from the top, install the replacement element from the top, replace the cap, hit the key and go - never loses prime to the IP.

I'll get the pics posted, but in the meanwhile you can see one in action on your friendly neighbor's '03-up Dodge Cummins TurboDiesel pickup - you know........the noisy one down the street, always drives by blowin' black smoke on the petunias.

It's just another option - can be found in yer local boneyards, but checkin' on pricing, even as we type.......................

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:40 pm

I was trying to distinguish between 2 levels of fixes

Racor only head - this is for the people who have constant problems the dealer can't fix -those who have to bleed the filter head every day or every week - I think this is a minimum for those folks.

However due to the nature of a vacuum system and air in fuel and intermittant fuel problem I expect that there will be long term issues - probably fuel pump replacements around 100,000 miles or so - I think the system is just a bad design therefore I'd like to look for a second step for those who intend to keep their CRD until the wheels fall off.

Target 500,000+ miles with nothing but scheduled maintenance
That's where I'm looking for Lift pump, pre and final filter , some way to vent air and return lines with coolers.
Racor is an option - but so are Cummins and Duramax solutions

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:06 pm

The smallest Fleetguard I saw on the site - 60gph for light engines
http://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/LT32562.pdf

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:28 pm

I have some information which, perhaps, is related.

I've had bucking (that burping/bucking at 55+mph when feathering the throttle) that's increased recently. When it didn't go away with a filter change and hose-clamp tightening I tried the "lift/fuel-pump from a '95 Suburban diesel" ahead of the filter approach in an attempt to see if I couldn't get rid of air entering the system. Assuming it was being sucked in somewhere around the filter assembly/puck/filter gaskets/etc.

After getting the pump installed in-line just before the filter input, it got worse... not better. I checked and re-tightened everything - still horrible. Lots of air to bleed every time I shut it off. "Large fuel leak" fault codes... (new one - hadn't seen it before). Went into limp mode on long pulls, died after WOT emptied the filter, long weak acceleration from a dead stop, long cranking times even when I let the lift pump run and prime before cranking it over.

So - I pulled the pump (mounted in the engine compartment for convenience) and put everything back to stock.

Starts immediately, runs fine, burping/bumping is a small as it's ever been (barely detectable now). No codes.

So, my guess at this point is that the air is being introduced either by the in-tank pickup or the rubber hoses that transition from the tank to the steel lines that bring the fuel up front... surmising that the lift pump increased the vacuum on the lines and actually sucked more air into the system.

An alternative I consider less likely but not impossible is that the lift-pump doesn't flow as much as the CP3 pulls, and I increased suction/leakage at the filter assy and just made the leaks there worse.

What are the odds that we're all fighting something like this (leaks back at the tank) as a partial contributor to our air-in-system woes?

Mark
--

ATXKJ wrote:

I was trying to distinguish between 2 levels of fixes

Racor only head - this is for the people who have constant problems the dealer can't fix -those who have to bleed the filter head every day or every week - I think this is a minimum for those folks.

However due to the nature of a vacuum system and air in fuel and intermittant fuel problem I expect that there will be long term issues - probably fuel pump replacements around 100,000 miles or so - I think the system is just a bad design therefore I'd like to look for a second step for those who intend to keep their CRD until the wheels fall off.

Target 500,000+ miles with nothing but scheduled maintenance
That's where I'm looking for Lift pump, pre and final filter , some way to vent air and return lines with coolers.
Racor is an option - but so are Cummins and Duramax solutions

Jeger · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:06 pm

An orificed tee from the bleeder port to the return line would probably fix your problem. You may not be the only one with a leak further back, but this is the first case I have seen that points to that.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

I'm not sure the lift pump is a 500,000 mile solution, at least for the fuel rail.

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... ht=#226597

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:41 pm

That is highly unusual - be interesting to see a pressure guage reading on the system before\after with that GM pump - the CP3 lift pump will pull 20" vacuum at the input and easily pumps 180psi - that AC pump is not capable of that, but is a flow-thru shuttle-type - one failure mode is that it will buzz\operate without pumping - a new one will pump 4-5psi at 15gph

Serendipity · **Joined:** Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:51 pm **Posts:** 45

Not sure what to make of Mr. Mopar's comments on lift pumps. Somehow, we've went from being told that with a lift pump the engine would be unstable and billow great clouds of smoke to the reference a couple posts up which talks about rail pressure variations that are undetectable by the driver. There is considerable distance between those two statements. I have not, but either Retmil46, Ranger1, or both have looked at rail pressure with and without a lift pump and saw no difference. To me, the cascade valve should return any excess back to the tank. As long as that line is not overwhelmed, I don't see a problem. I have been wrong before.

I will also say this. It is possible for the suction system to work fine without a lift pump. For a happy little while after I replaced my original (leaking at the heater connection) filter head I had no air accumulation in the filter head. I added a primary filter in ahead of the OEM and unintentionally reintroduced the air leak in some of the plumbing for that. I run with a lift pump because I want two stage filtration and don't want the CP3 to have to pull through 2 filters. I also like that a minor leak like the one I had in my plumbing produces a small damp area that attracts dust rather than an air embolism and no start condition.

As far as I know, I was the first one on here to run a lift pump. I like it, but I don't regard it as essential. If you can't control the air accumulation any other way, I think it is way better than ingesting slugs of air at inconvenient times. Just my .02.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:51 pm

have other people installed the lift pump by itself close to the filter head??? that definitely confuses the issue.
Blackliberty mounted his in the engine compartment - but he also added the vent to return line.
The other lift pumps I remember reading about were close to the tank (I don't remember if Serendipity mentioned)

I'm focusing on the plastic puck as the major issue - we've had several that actually are bad enough to leak diesel out there, especially at the heater plug - which is a much larger leak than the what's neccessary for air to leak in.
(I also have no confidence in molded plastic for fuel + heater)

Of course that doesn't mean it's the only problem.

A lift pump would be a part of the solution - getting the fuel head into a metal casting is part of the solution - adding a vent to return is part of the solution, a cooler in the return line is part of the solution. getting better quality filters is part of the solution (for longevity).

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:55 pm

With the experience of folks here with lift pumps - I'm fairly confident MrMopar's issue was with the dyno setup.

Stan Wright · **Posted:** Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:19 pm

Cowcatcher wrote:

gmctd wrote:

Iirc, Steve was planning an Omega sensor - they're about 65bucks - if any others have been there\done that, the show'n'tell post would be most helpful to all - I'm planning for the Cummins manager, because top-loading is ever so much more convenient

Can you post a pic and a price?

Pics: http://liberty.eurekaboy.com/fuelpressuregauge.htm

Price: $61

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:17 am

Oops! sorry Stan - Steve is my youngest bro...........

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:11 am

I hear you re: Mr. Mopar and lift pumps.

I struggle with the notion of it being a problem since all the Dodge RAM pickups with Cummins 5.9L engines have lift pumps - and the 3rd Gens which use the CP3 (2003 and newer) have them attached directly to the filter assembly in the engine compartment.

What I don't know is if there are any subtle (or not so) differences between the two CP3 implementations which would explain the difference. Mr. Mopar should be in a position to know... but there you are.

I wonder if you didn't exacerbate an air leak much like I did - by changing the balance (more vacuum) when the second filter was introduced. In a separate thread somewhere (in the CRD portion of this forum) someone else mentioned having to replace the in-tank pickup/assy - which in a gasser would also have the lift pump. In their case, either the pickup or the associated hoses were the culprit introducing air.

I agree with whoever was commenting on attaching some good gauges in the system to look are pressures/vacuum at various places. Right now, we're short on good objective data.

Mark
--

Serendipity wrote:

Not sure what to make of Mr. Mopar's comments on lift pumps. Somehow, we've went from being told that with a lift pump the engine would be unstable and billow great clouds of smoke to the reference a couple posts up which talks about rail pressure variations that are undetectable by the driver. There is considerable distance between those two statements. I have not, but either Retmil46, Ranger1, or both have looked at rail pressure with and without a lift pump and saw no difference. To me, the cascade valve should return any excess back to the tank. As long as that line is not overwhelmed, I don't see a problem. I have been wrong before.

I will also say this. It is possible for the suction system to work fine without a lift pump. For a happy little while after I replaced my original (leaking at the heater connection) filter head I had no air accumulation in the filter head. I added a primary filter in ahead of the OEM and unintentionally reintroduced the air leak in some of the plumbing for that. I run with a lift pump because I want two stage filtration and don't want the CP3 to have to pull through 2 filters. I also like that a minor leak like the one I had in my plumbing produces a small damp area that attracts dust rather than an air embolism and no start condition.

As far as I know, I was the first one on here to run a lift pump. I like it, but I don't regard it as essential. If you can't control the air accumulation any other way, I think it is way better than ingesting slugs of air at inconvenient times. Just my .02.

Racor Fuel Filter Unit

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