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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:44 pm 
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Just do a search on that lift pump model number - several of the import forums list that pump at 2-3psi @ 16gph, for small carbureted engines such as the MG, Datsun B210, etc

Your system is spec'ed at a specific allowable vacuum level, engine running at idle, due to the filter element - it is a restriction to free flow, but not such that it will retain any vacuum volume after shutdown - the dirtier the filter element, the greater vacuum - normally it should equalize to fuel cap calibration, ~ 2", bleeding down at shutdown - but, each time you open the bleeder to see if there is any vacuum, you're equalizing to Baro pressure, adding air to the fuel manager - not even a good test unless a vacuum guage is installed to prevent air entry - the more air volume, the less fuel volume, the greater volume for vacuum in the system - which often is reported as high vacuum, by most folks.

FYI - the fuel cap is calibrated for a specific in-tank vacuum level, which can be measured at the fuel manager, engine running, and is part of the spec - but it bleeds down at shutdown - hopefully not into the fuel manager head

The hose and bottle on the bleeder will answer a question - a vac\press guage will prove system functionality

At this point, you still do not know what is causing the problem, or it would not be a problem, at this point - is my point - simple testing can point to the culprit - if others with lift pumps were having this problem, they would be posting about the problem, which they are not, so asking if others have vacuum at the bleeder after adding a lift pump is not a good test procedure, and could possibly result in yours not being resolved for any number of days - or weeks.

Not being one to throw parts - shotgun - at a system to see if it will fix it, I say do the hose test at the bleeder - if it doesn't fill the 16oz bottle in ~10secs, remove the fuel manager inlet hose, feed that to the bottle, run the test again - if it still doesn't fill the bottle in ~10secs, see if the hoses around the install are crimped, or blocked - if not, pull the pump and see if anything is in the inlet - if not, throw a new pump at it, maybe yours is defective

So many unanswered questions.....................

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:02 pm 
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Good question, Bill - it's a simple bourdon tube of brass - some are tinned - steel or stainless or monel would be better for permanent, as Diesel is slightly reactive with copper\brass\silver solder, but we're talking 20bucks pocket change, and very low pressure, and finite time span (temporary test) - I don't see any problem if one were mounted permanently, tho - our lifespans are rather finite, as is interest in any particular vehicle, eh?

Liquid-specific guages also have snubbers to smooth out pressure variations and prevent damage at hi-pressure slugging - nice option, but not necessary, here.

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GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:49 pm 
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gmctd wrote:
At this point, you still do not know what is causing the problem, or it would not be a problem, at this point - is my point - simple testing can point to the culprit


I look at it this way: I have a gauge. it is crude, but it works for the test I am doing. It consists of a clear tube coming off the bleeder with some liquid in it. If there is pressure, the liquid pushes out. If there is vacuum, it gets sucked in. I still have a problem, as you put it, because I haven't fitted a different fuel pump. I knew the fuel pump was the issue. I didn't need an additional pointer to the culprit.

gmctd wrote:
if others with lift pumps were having this problem, they would be posting about the problem, which they are not, so asking if others have vacuum at the bleeder after adding a lift pump is not a good test procedure, and could possibly result in yours not being resolved for any number of days - or weeks.


You say that nobody else has reported an issue and therefore my issue is unique, but others may not be reporting problems with lift pumps because they haven't looked for them. After all, my engine seemed to run fine with the 74029 pump in spite of what I found. No symptoms and most people wouldn't bother to check for vacuum. But this pump clearly would not have solved the air in the filter head problem when I installed the self bleeding circuit, because there was still vacuum there.

NAPA called Federal-Mogul for me (since FM won't let mere laymen like me call and ask questions), and they were told that the 74029 pump (or any of their solenoid pumps) should not be used with the CP3 pump because it flows a maximum of 22gph at free flow, much less at any pressure. This is far away from the 72gph that NAPA quoted me initially. If it were the case that the CP3 used all fuel that flowed into it to feed injectors, 22gph would be ample...after all, 25mpg at 50mph = 2gph fuel usage. But the CP3 returns a lot of fuel to the tank. So according to Carter even 22gph isn't enough to keep up with the demands of the CP3 inlet and maintain positive pressure, and there may be enough of a restriction to full flow at high power that the CP3 may be starved for lubrication. According to Carter via NAPA, trying to pull through a working solenoid pump is actually harder than trying to pull through one that has failed. The flow-through design was compared to the failure mode of automotive thermostats in that they are designed to fail open rather than closed. (Joe, this bit of info is something you may want to be aware of.)

Instead, they recommend a rotary vane pump such as they recommend for use in Cummins trucks. They initially recommended the P4070, but web searches make it look like it is not rated for diesel. NAPA called them back on that, and they are rated for diesel and regularly installed in diesel rigs such as Cummins, Fords, etc. It is also not much more expensive than the 74029: $78 versus $43.

It sounds to me like the in-tank solution you came up with is the elegant way to go. For me, since I already started down this path, finding a suitable external pump is the simplest solution.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:12 pm 
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Good work, George - good info, maybe even for Joe Romas, as you indicated - and, fyi, I'm not advocating the in-tank pump - in-line pumps incl the magnetic rotary pumps are better options, as they can be replaced on the side of the road, if necessary.

GM uses flow-thru solenoid impulse pumps exclusively on the 6.5, with normal failure rate - the '93 model is high output, so it is the pump of choice for replacement - it's not nearly as noisy as the Facet\Purolator or the Carter versions, but I think they're rated at 15gph, not good here.

Carter's rotary vane is not flowthru, which has caused such problems on the VP44's and now the CP3 systems that Dodge converted to the intank system in ought five, with retro-fit kits for the '03-'4 models - fairly serious stuff, iyam.

So - we're on our way to fixed, right?

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GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:20 pm 
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gmctd wrote:
Carter's rotary vane is not flowthru, which has caused such problems on the VP44's and now the CP3 systems that Dodge converted to the intank system in ought five, with retro-fit kits for the '03-'4 models - fairly serious stuff, iyam.

So - we're on our way to fixed, right?


Well, I thought so until you said this...NAPA claimed that the Carter vane pump *was* flow-through. So far, you've been more on target than NAPA has about these pumps. Jegs, Summit et al are claiming "free flow" on their web sites, but maybe that's just marketing mumbojumbo. Are you pretty sure that the 4070 won't flow through on failure?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:36 pm 
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It doesn't, on the Dodges - go by the counter, take one outta the box and give it the ole side-of-the-road traffic-stop sobriety test - if ya really have to huff and puff, it's not flow-thru - and don't fergit to remove the plastic cap-plugs prior to the test, eh?

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GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:23 pm 
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gmctd wrote:
It doesn't, on the Dodges - go by the counter, take one outta the box and give it the ole side-of-the-road traffic-stop sobriety test - if ya really have to huff and puff, it's not flow-thru - and don't fergit to remove the plastic cap-plugs prior to the test, eh?


So that's the secret! Last time I inhaled one of the plugs, then got a double whammy when the lube oil inside went down the ol' windpipe too. Those NAPA guys sure got a giggle out of it, though...

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 Post subject: What about an accumulator?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:50 pm 
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What about an accumulator? The old Bosch CIS gasoline fuel injection system used a fuel accumulator (I forgot the Bosch technically correct name) to maintain fuel pressure and prevent the Gas engines from vapor locking. Since WOT is only for several seconds in most cases (except in applications such as long mountain climbs pulling a big load) an accumulator would supply the needed surge for temporary high out put and eliminate the need for a mega pump to cruse around the country side.

Steve :)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:39 pm 
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You're the second to mention that, George - I think you guys were just bitten by the money-back policy of those walk-in emporiums, where the pump was returned when it didn't solve the problem - prolly a good idea to, like the cop, get a whiff of the culprit B4 commencing the breath-a-lyzer test, eh?

Far as an accumulator, we already got one: the rail log - but, there would never have been a problem if Jeep had mounted the fuel manager head below the level of the Inj Pump - trapped air will accumulate at the highest point in the system.

Or, like Dodge, plumbed the filter between a lift pump and the Inj Pump - impossible with the CP3 configuration, Dodge has an auxilliary lift pump that pressurizes their fuel manager, which is higher than the Inj Pump - a megapump is not needed, just one that is flow-thru at fail, and will supply ~5psi at ~35-70gph

Carter makes an inline vane pump specifically for the Powerstroke, but it looks expensive, and their website is about hype, rather than information, so no specs

Ok, I found it - P74221 roller vane, indicating high pressure <35psi - 220bucks, indicating high priced, not useable here.

The plastic-vane pump, in-tank and inline, is good for about 20psi - the metal roller-vane type is more positive displacement, good to about 80psi, like the V6 pump - not useable here

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GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject: Accumulator
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:16 pm 
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The rail is the high pressure accumulator/ attenuator, I was referring to a low pressure accumulator to store up a supply for the lift pump. Another item that would be nice to know is how much fuel gets dumped over the relief/pressure regulator valve. I would guess the CP3 pump is positive displacement and sized to maintain the volume needed for maximum fuel usage. Dumping the excess fuel past the relief/pressure regulator valve also creates heat and warms up the fuel, knowing the quantity of excess fuel returned to the tank will also provide information that can be used to calculate the proper size cooler to dissipate the excess heat. To give you something to put the fuel heat up into perspective, look at your fuel level gauge after driving on a trip of at least 20 miles, note it and check the level when you start it up after letting it sit for several hours. Mine will drop about a needle width after cool down.

Steve :)

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KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
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Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:32 pm 
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Understood on the accumulator, just no way to use it, with the lift pump inside the CP3 - clamp a temperature probe on the fuel return line, wrap it with insulating tape to determine fuel temps for cooler sizeing.

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'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject: Accumulator 2
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:21 pm 
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Place the accumulator between the member added electric lift pump and the filter housing so it operates at 5 PSI max.
Placing a temp sensor on the line will only provide the temp of excess fuel.
Empirical engineering info needed to determine size of cooler: Calculate the hydraulic horse power of the CP3 pump assuming 23500 PSI as the working pressure.
What does not go through the injectors goes back to the tank and produces heat equal to the energy used to elevate the pressure to 23500 PSI.
Look up the specific heat of diesel fuel and this will tell how many BTUs the fuel in the tank will retain.
The cooler will dissipate X number of BTU per hour at a given temperature.
Another item to consider is that for a given engine horse power output, the higher the engine RPM the more excess fuel will be returned and more heat generated. Fuel heating is a function of how much excess fuel is returned to the tank and not a function of horse power produced.
The easy way to calculate cooler requirements would be to note reported temperature rises of the fuel tank after how long of driving, use the specific heat times the volume, and calculate the BTUs stored in the fuel, hence the required cooler size. Since diesel specific heat is close to that of ATF, we won't have to fudge the size of the cooler requirements.

Steve

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KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:40 pm 
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Heat absorbed during passage thru the injectors, inserted into the combustion chamber and exposed to combustion temps, will be greater than that resulting from the pumping process - the fuel return line will reflect those temps averaged with temps of fuel returned directly from CP3, right?

ECM regulates excess fuel return according to inlet fuel temps from tank at fuel manager head

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'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject: Fuel heat up
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:27 pm 
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The injectors are "T" ed into the rail and conduct a small amount of heat to the fuel in the fuel rail. Most of the heat generated is from pumping the fuel up to 23500 PSI and passing it through the relief/pressure regulating valve. Unlike an air conditioner fuel is not a gas and there is no condenser to get rid of the heat generated from compressing it, since the fuel does not turn into a gas at the relief/pressure regulating valve, the heat stays in the fuel instead of cooling.
If the CP3 were a swash plate controlled axial piston pump like some hydraulic systems, it would generate minimal heat and the fuel temp would be much lower. When an open center hydraulic system components are being tested, they will blow the relief valve to quickly heat up the hydraulic oil. Closed center systems reach a set pressure and cease flow until demand is placed for flow. The common rail system flows like an open center with a relief valve to elevate the pressure to 23500 PSI. Some fuel goes to the injectors and is burned in the cylinders, the rest of the heated up fuel returns to the tank.
Why Bosch chose a fixed displacement pump instead of a variable displacement pump is some where in the neurons of the collective German mind or was totally a bean counter move. Using a plastic fuel tank for a heat sink/cooler is a bean counter move. My experience with hydraulic pumps only goes to 6000 PSI as used in Hydrostatic Drives, 23,500 is much more. Some gear head may come up with a swash plate controlled axial piston pump and we will have our heat problems solved along with performance problems. The one draw back will be the mandatory requirement for a charge pump to supply the high pressure pump to avoid cavitation. The charge pump will most likely need to be a vain pump or roller pump with an electric supply pump, the main topic of this thread.

Steve

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KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
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Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:54 pm 
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Rail presure is regulated by the ECM-controlled FQS (FCA for Cummins) solenoid valve on the CP3, itself, bypassing unneeded 80psi low-pressure fuel directly back to the tank (180psi for Cummins).

A secondary FPS solenoid valve on the rail itself bypasses high pressure rail fuel when it over-pressures at the end of a hard run and sudden shut-down to reduced power levels (Cummins uses a simple over-pressure relief valve for rail fuel return).

Between the two of them, rail pressure is regulated without feeding excess hi-temp fuel back to the tank - which is why the fuel in the tank is never at 180deg engine temperature

Both function via input from the Rail Pressure Sensor, with input from the Inlet Fuel Temperature sensor in the fuel manager head.

Excess injector pressure at hi temp is always bypassed back to the tank

The return fuel line would be the best source of temperature input for your calculations, just back of the FPS valve

The beauty of this system is the high pressures can be achieved with a small pump that does not eat into the power
output - less overhead = more power

Almost fergot - the fuel tank is electrically and thermally conductive thermo-plastic - functions better as a heat dissipator than you might think

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'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:43 am 
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SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:16 am 
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Does any know what the volume of the fuel return happens to be? Or for that matter what is the max output of the fuel injection pump?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:18 pm 
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GMCTD

What is the pictured gauge measuring (inlet to the filter, or outlet) ?

Thanks

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:37 pm 
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Here, it's installed in the bleeder port, which has been tapped for 1/8"npt

Far as return volume, it is variable, dependent on rpm and power and fuel temps - unmodified CP3 output will supply 500hp from a 6.6L turbocharged V8 or 5.9L turbo 6 cylinder, prolly something on the order of 120-150mm3 fuel rate.

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'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject: Loco the test rat
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:40 am 
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LocoCRD wrote:
I guess I'm the test rat...I ordered these parts from Mopar Parts America. I'll post pics of what I get.


So.... you get the goods?

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