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 Post subject: Extended Warranty fix nixed by Jeep beancounter
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:36 pm 
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Location: Kansas City
Here's a story of concern to all you CRD modders out there. My dealership, which provided me with great service while my Jeep was under warranty suddenly decided to give me a hard time about the Provent filter I installed a couple years ago to fix one of their design flaws. My suspicion is that it had something to do with the company "inspector" they sent to look at it before they would allow them to fix anything. They ended up only clearing the 2 codes it threw last week, and tried to blame the problem on the "non-OEM equipment installed in the engine bay." The Provent is off now, and I am hoping the CEL comes back on tomorrow so I can take it back and prove that it wasnt the Provent that caused the problem.

Does anyone else have any experience like this, or any idea how the Provent could have possibly caused a CEL? I don't think they have even taken the time to listen to my explanations of the benefit of having the filter installed. It just seems like a desperate attempt to save a few bucks on their part, they don't seem to care they may be on their way to losing a customer in the process.

Lastly, if this is the kind of runaround we have to expect every time our vehicle goes in for extended warranty work, is the policy even worth it?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:48 pm 
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I pull the Provent before taking it in - not that I expect a problem
I just don't want an excuse to be sitting in front of them
(most dealership have problems troubleshooting anyway and I don't want to give them an easy excuse)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:41 am 
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I actually had a VW dealership deny a fuel temperature sensor repair on my Jetta TDI... Because of the paint color of the car.

No lie, they tried to tell me that the black paint was the cause of the temp reading high and going out of spec. So have faith young grasshoppa, they will do ANYTHING to avoid fixing your car, or enable them to void your warranty.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:27 am 
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I think this varies by dealership. Heck, alot of Jeep dealerships don't even have the expertise to compentently work on a CRD! :roll:

My dealership is somewhat tolerant of modifications but then again they won't cover something they may not understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Extended Warranty fix nixed by Jeep beancounter
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:42 pm 
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oz_crd wrote:

Does anyone else have any experience like this, or any idea how the Provent could have possibly caused a CEL? I don't think they have even taken the time to listen to my explanations of the benefit of having the filter installed. It just seems like a desperate attempt to save a few bucks on their part, they don't seem to care they may be on their way to losing a customer in the process.

Lastly, if this is the kind of runaround we have to expect every time our vehicle goes in for extended warranty work, is the policy even worth it?


Read this, print it out, and print out a copy for your dealership and bring it to them. After they've read it, ask them to explain how capturing the oil vapor from your CCV with an industry-approved filter could in any way relate to the code that's being thrown. They have the burden of showing how it voids your warranty, not the other way around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:46 pm 
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To add to what dgeist said, the two main parts are Title 15 - §2302(c) and Title 15 - §2310(d). 2302(c) basically says that the dealer cannot limit the warrany "in connection with such product, any article or service...which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name" unless "the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product", which I take to mean they cannot tell you which type, brand or name of product or service that you have to use unless they can prove that the Jeep will function properly only with such product and service, and §2310(d) state that you can bring suit in any court and that if you win the court can order the dealer to pay you expenses, including attorney's fees. Not a layer here, I have just been trying to understand all of this before I have any problems.

Robert


Last edited by click23 on Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:26 pm 
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KJbob wrote:
I think this varies by dealership. Heck, alot of Jeep dealerships don't even have the expertise to compentently work on a CRD! :roll:

My dealership is somewhat tolerant of modifications but then again they won't cover something they may not understand.


When I was a Mitsubishi service tech I remember 3 warranty claims I had
to deny...

1. Kid brings in his Eclipse for CEL. ScanTool says downstream O2 sensor.
I put up on lift. Catalytic converter is missing. "Sorry kid, cant help ya till
you put the Cat back in."

2. Kid bring in his Eclipse Turbo for CEL. ScanTool says TPS and MAF.
I look at service record- 3 TPS's and 2 MAF's replaced before. Pop hood
and find that that the factory bypass-valve was replaced with a blow-off
valve. "Sorry kid, put it back to stock form and we'll try again." He never
came back with the same problem again.

3. Kid brings in his Eclipse Turbo AWD wanting a new transfer case. Claims
he had problems and sites numerous TSB's and recalls. "No problem, I'll
check it out." No noticable leaks, seals still intact. Gear mesh and wear
pattern normal. No metal shavings and plenty of oil. As I'm taking it off the
lift I see that he has TALLER TIRES ON THE FRONT, than on the rear.
"Sorry kid, transfer case is fine. But you might want to look into getting
the correct size tire put on ALL THE WAY AROUND before you have a REAL
problem." This guy was not happy at all. He really felt he deserved a new
t-case.

I know, not quite the same as your Provent deal, but had also worked on
other cars with added superchargers, modded exhaust, and other stuff
while still under warranty. As long as the problem was not related to the
modification, I was OK with it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:16 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
I know, not quite the same as your Provent deal, but had also worked on
other cars with added superchargers, modded exhaust, and other stuff
while still under warranty. As long as the problem was not related to the
modification, I was OK with it.


Hmmm, I seem to see a trend with all those denied claims... :wink:

Seriously, though, if the complaint was about the CAC hose leaking air or something or lack of turbo boost, I'd completely understand denying the claim as long as a provent was in it... but then that's actually related to the system that's having the problem.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:10 pm 
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Well, they will have to try a little harder to get out of diagnosing and fixing my CEL. Provent is still uninstalled, but the light is back.

I am not looking forward to going back into the dealership so soon after having a disagreement with the service manager. But him trying to blame the problem on the Provent was total BS. Now that I am into the extended warranty, I have been switched to a different service adviser, and it is looking like Bad Cop time after Mr. Good Cop kept me happy thru 36000 miles and all of the mechanical problems that went with it.

I was thinking I should print out a schematic of the Provent and take it in for his edification. With the built-in relief valve, I see no way it could have caused any problem.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:48 pm 
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Location: Lynchburg, Virginia
oz_crd wrote:
Well, they will have to try a little harder to get out of diagnosing and fixing my CEL. Provent is still uninstalled, but the light is back.

I am not looking forward to going back into the dealership so soon after having a disagreement with the service manager. But him trying to blame the problem on the Provent was total BS. Now that I am into the extended warranty, I have been switched to a different service adviser, and it is looking like Bad Cop time after Mr. Good Cop kept me happy thru 36000 miles and all of the mechanical problems that went with it.

I was thinking I should print out a schematic of the Provent and take it in for his edification. With the built-in relief valve, I see no way it could have caused any problem.


The Provent actually has TWO relief valves, one is a pressure valve, the other a vacuum valve. I would have to look the pressure settings up, but my memory is that both are very small, so that if the Provent clogs up in any way, neither input or output will be significantly obstructed.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:14 am 
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Happy Turkey day everybody.
Quick update, Jeep has been in shop all week again, dealer finally finished wrangling with the extended warranty company on replacing my MAF and Boost Pressure Sensor. Bad news is, it also started throwing a code for the #4 glow plug. Turns out at least 2 of them are fried, all 4 are on order, and glow plugs are one of the things that is not covered by our "comprehensive" extended warranty. Jeez, just when I was ready to go try to trade it in on a Tacoma crew cab or something. Looks like I will be keeping it for a few more months and keeping my fingers crossed that the CEL stays off for a while.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:35 am 
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I'll get a little esoteric here and even risk the exposure of ridicule, but as with every business relationship which depends on people, both sides have to make it work. I visit my dealership about twice a month on my way home to and from work.

I've been ridiculed here before about bringing 3 boxes Dunkin Doughnuts to my dealership in the morning. But, it's cultivating a relationship because it's people that make that dealership work. The doughnuts are appreciated by Service Manager, Service Writers and Technicians.

Sometimes on my way home, I'll stop by and talk about service bay politics, how many hours techs got in over the week or just their families over a cigarette smoke in the back of the service bay. Heck, I don't even smoke, but I bring along a couple packs of their favorite smoke!
Sure enough the Service writers and Service Manager is "bumming a smoke"............

This relationship building gets me into the service bay each time my Jeep is worked on. It gets me access to information about our CRD's that I have shared on this board. The service manager goes out of his way to personally say hi to me each time I stop in. The service manager even called me on my cell to come see the new GC CRD as they took the bonnet off to marvel at it.

I genuinely enjoy doing those things for the people that will take care of my satisfaction with my Jeep. They in turn take the extra steps on service and warranty because the customer has a face associated with the ticket number. The business model that has developed over the years shields this relationship building from happening because the bean counters took the human factor out of the equation.

As in a repeat visit service model, it's really up to each of us to cultivate a relationship because then the trust builds and neither party feels that each is after their bottom line of cash. In fact, each party goes the extra mile to meet in the middle if and when a disagreement occurs.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:45 am 
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Quite agree with the "doughnut" method - I've used it myself, although not to the extent that DZL LOU has taken it! :)

The "doughnut" method could be a generic term as well for cultivating a good working relationship with your dealership/garage of choice. Something as simple as letting them know you'll recommend their business by word of mouth to others, or that you'll give them repeat business, because you think highly of the way you've been treated and the quality of their work, can go a long way.

One recent personal example - Earlier this week, I had a set of Cooper tires installed by a local dealer. We've purchased several sets of Cooper tires from them over the past two years - the tires have given excellent service, the personnel at the shop have been more than friendly and are quite good at their job, they've offered very competitive prices, and they've been more than willing to take the time to discuss different ideas and options for tires on our different vehicles - no hard sell or trying to push the monthly special. On this trip, we spent nearly a half-hour BS'ing about CRD's and other diesels before we got around to actually putting on the tires, and was invited to come back into the shop area to continue the discussion as they were rather curious about this diesel powered Jeep.

The stock Goodyears had 25K on them, I had a rather low opinion of them after recent experience, and knew they didn't fit any of our other vehicles (not that I would have put these POS's back on any vehicle driven by someone I considered a friend). So I let them keep the tires for disposal.

For that matter, they had quite a pile of used Goodyear Wranglers in various states of wear stacked up outside - matter of fact they constituted the vast majority of their removed tire pile. IMO, that spoke louder than any reviews on tire rack or other sites concerning the quality of those tires!

Later that day, my father had a coniption fit when he found out I'd let them keep the tires. In his view, they still had good tread, and he could have sold them to one of his friends for some pocket money. He even tried to get me to call the store and tell them I wanted the Goodyears back! Fortunately it was past their closing time.

Next day he made a trip into town, and when he came home 3 hours later, he had 4 used Goodyear Wranglers in the bed of his truck! He'd actually went by their shop and demanded the tires back, even though they weren't off his vehicle and legally he had no claim to them.

But the joke was on him, as the kid he'd dealt with grabbed the only set of used Goodyear Wranglers left there (they'd already shipped out the discarded tires from the previous day) that were off a vehicle with 15" rims.

That didn't deter him, he went back again the next day and tried to swap out the 15" tires he'd gotten for what came off my CRD, and was rather irritated when he found out they'd already been disposed of. When he got home, he was making comments to the effect that they'd tried to cheat him in some manner, and I could imagine the comments he'd make about this shop to other people.

Knowing how my father is, I could imagine how he might have dealt with them face to face. I called up the manager of the store, explained the situation as I understood it, and apologized to him for any interruption or inconvenience my father might have caused.

Botom line, I had a good working relationship with these people, and I didn't want my father's desire to get something for nothing to put that in jeopardy, so I called up and offered an apology.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:11 pm 
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I actually agree with DZ and Retmil, and I feel that I have had a pretty amiable relationship with the service crew so far. It is funny that you mention it, because I actually did apologize to my service writer the other day. What caused my turn-around was actually talking to the extended warranty guy on the phone and realizing that they were the bottleneck in the path to getting things fixed. Like I said when I called back my service guy, "that guy had so much vague double-speak, he should be running for office." What finally got the attention of the warranty guy was my asking if I could just cancel my policy, pay for the sensors and sell it. Wow, next thing I know, they have OK'd the fix.

So, things have smoothed out a lot between the service writer and me now that we are working together to come to a solution. He has even offered to put me in a loaner over the weekend, even though the warranty co. won't pay for it.

Who knows, I might even take in donuts tomorrow morning when I stop by to check on it.


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