LOST JEEPS :: View topic - New article on algae based biodiesel

This really isn't a home fuel design, and its unlikely that it ever will be in this form. Oil extraction is not all that simple, you don't just swirl the algae around and out pops the oil, the algae have to be broken down.

It is possible that you could buy the oil produced, just as you can buy veggie oil and make home BD. That said, if it went into production on a large scale I doubt it would be cheaper to do it at home...

Had the opportunity to talk to some ATF agents recently...

Apparently I am only able to brew 50 gallons of beer a year, legally. :wink:

Also, distillation of alcohol is illegal in any form. But they generally dont
care unless you are distilling several hundred gallons a year AND selling it.

flash7210 wrote:

Had the opportunity to talk to some ATF agents recently...

Apparently I am only able to brew 50 gallons of beer a year, legally. :wink:

Also, distillation of alcohol is illegal in any form. But they generally dont
care unless you are distilling several hundred gallons a year AND selling it.

So, there's probably no law against making it, but using it is another story (since it's not taxed). I'm reminded of the guy in north carolina that was arrested at a NASCAR event for driving a SVO/WVO converted mercedes on public roads. It would truly suck if producers had to comply with all the regulations of refineries.

regardless of how fuel is made... it comes down to a few court rulings that have been overturned...

the reasons were:
The Prius - where are the taxes paid when its in ele mode? yes 1/2 mile here and there add up
School Bus and city trans including police etc - NCG again, there is no "road" tax for Nat Gas
other fuel; Propane - again, you an fill your truck up with LP at the same place you fill your grill up.

However the state of UT went to a road tax based on your ODO and time of Reg. which would work for someone like me who runs on 100% Bio 100% of the time. so the tax is based on miles driven, not gallons bought.

- recall the occasional reversion to savagery in the long lines at the gas pumps during the first oil crises

Author:	blake1827 [ Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:	New article on algae based biodiesel
http://www.scribemedia.org/2007/12/12/algae-biofuel-valcent-vertigro/ I know there was a thread about this a while ago, just came across this more recent article, more interesting related links at end of this piece.

Author:	Reflex [ Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:
Very good link, much appreciated. I posted up something similiar in the alternative fuels section about Shell's investment in algae based BD... Algae really does look like the way to go, crop based biofuels are a major disaster.

Author:	boilermaker2 [ Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:
The article was pretty good and promising. Some of the comments beneath it made me think they get too much information from Star Trek or something...there assumptions bordered on silly...I've yet to see pond scum need a coal-fired plant to live? Who knew? Boiler

Author:	Threeweight [ Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:43 am ]
Post subject:
National Geographic had a great article in October comparing various biofuels, and looking at emerging technology. Good stuff. Online at: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2 ... fuels.html

Author:	dgeist [ Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Valcent design
I love the simplicity of their design. I want one on my roof wait, does that mean I need a zoning variance for light industrial or for farming?

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New article on algae based biodiesel http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27504	Page 1 of 1

Author:	geordi [ Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:
Heck, I'm willing to donate the entire surface of the roof of my house, and I'm just crazy enough to know how to make my own biodiesel (Over 1000 gallons produced) and would LOVE a free fuel source! Their arguments (in the comments) about filtration are no different than the problems I was having filtering the used veggie oil. And centrifuge filters are extremely effective, but what the commenters don't know about is that there ARE centrifugal filters. They are continuous-filtration devices used on ships like tugboats for filtering the fuels, and they do not need "excessive amounts of energy" like the comments said. IIRC, they don't really have any moving parts. The centrifugal force is created by the flowing liquid at high speed around the tank, creating a vortex effect. You pull the clean fuel from the center of the vortex, the filtered matter is pulled to the outside and slowly moves to the bottom of the vessel, where it can be drained by a valve. I want one for my own nefarious fuel creation... But can't afford it yet.

Author:	Reflex [ Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:
This really isn't a home fuel design, and its unlikely that it ever will be in this form. Oil extraction is not all that simple, you don't just swirl the algae around and out pops the oil, the algae have to be broken down. It is possible that you could buy the oil produced, just as you can buy veggie oil and make home BD. That said, if it went into production on a large scale I doubt it would be cheaper to do it at home...

Author:	dgeist [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:
Reflex wrote: This really isn't a home fuel design, and its unlikely that it ever will be in this form. Oil extraction is not all that simple, you don't just swirl the algae around and out pops the oil, the algae have to be broken down. It is possible that you could buy the oil produced, just as you can buy veggie oil and make home BD. That said, if it went into production on a large scale I doubt it would be cheaper to do it at home... Yes, of course, but it doesn't mean people can't have fantasies I think the trick will be in making the production process cost-effective for MEDIUM-sized producers; to be profitable without getting 10 acres of heavy industrial land in the middle of a large city. That's one of my main gripes with the current fuel infrastructure, in that it's used everywhere but only made a few places. Other biodiesel technologies like soybean and animal-based fuels are a step forward in that respect IMHO even if not sustainable on a large-scale for widespread public use due to agricultural stresses incurred. Dan

Author:	Reflex [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:
Realistic points there, and yes, thats my issue with animal/agriculture biofuels, namely they destroy good cropland and threaten land currently not being used for crops and the species that inhabit them. The two pieces of algae that really appeal to me is the density of the solution(little land required) and its ability to use saltwater instead of freshwater, which is a very limited commodity(although Americans are blissfully unaware of that fact). In an ideal world, algae farms could be developed around the country, eliminating much of the transportation cost inherant in current fueling solutions, after all greenhouse environments would enable it to grow pretty much anywhere...

Author:	gmctd [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:
How long will it be B4 we see reoccurrance of the '20's - '30's scenarios, with revenooers bashing down garage doors and busting up stills, with tax-evasion shoot-outs in the suburbs and farmlands all across America? There's still a federally-limited quantity that can be home-brewed B4 you're required to register as a producer, with subsequent taxation.

Author:	flash7210 [ Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:
Had the opportunity to talk to some ATF agents recently... Apparently I am only able to brew 50 gallons of beer a year, legally. Also, distillation of alcohol is illegal in any form. But they generally dont care unless you are distilling several hundred gallons a year AND selling it.

Author:	dgeist [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:28 am ]
Post subject:
flash7210 wrote: Had the opportunity to talk to some ATF agents recently... Apparently I am only able to brew 50 gallons of beer a year, legally. Also, distillation of alcohol is illegal in any form. But they generally dont care unless you are distilling several hundred gallons a year AND selling it. So, there's probably no law against making it, but using it is another story (since it's not taxed). I'm reminded of the guy in north carolina that was arrested at a NASCAR event for driving a SVO/WVO converted mercedes on public roads. It would truly suck if producers had to comply with all the regulations of refineries.

Author:	Reflex [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:34 am ]
Post subject:
dgeist wrote: flash7210 wrote: Had the opportunity to talk to some ATF agents recently... Apparently I am only able to brew 50 gallons of beer a year, legally. Also, distillation of alcohol is illegal in any form. But they generally dont care unless you are distilling several hundred gallons a year AND selling it. So, there's probably no law against making it, but using it is another story (since it's not taxed). I'm reminded of the guy in north carolina that was arrested at a NASCAR event for driving a SVO/WVO converted mercedes on public roads. It would truly suck if producers had to comply with all the regulations of refineries. It would suck even more if homebrewing became widespread enough that we could not afford to repair the roads, after all thats what most of the gas tax money is used for. I don't have a problem with home brewing, but it should be subject to the same taxes IMO. Everyone who uses the roads should pay their fair share.

Author:	geordi [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:
Reflex, sometimes you need to check your facts against reality. "Most" gas taxes are used for road repair? Are you high? Here in Florida, (And I suspect many other places too) there is so much gas tax money available, that they are using it for LOTS of non-road purposes, while at the same time, proposing to SELL the public roads to international companies that will not have any requirements to maintain said roads. Its all about getting the money and not using it for it's stated purpose. As for your other comment about not being able to make algae biodiesel at home... I have a friend at UNH that is working on this. He has told me (and others) that if the strain of algae is up to 50% lipids (oil), then the only real processing you need is like "processing" a grape to make wine. Squish it. People like you told me that I couldn't make biodiesel in my own garage without: Blowing my self up with the methanol, killing myself with the methanol fumes or a spill, burning myself to death with the lye solution, or destroying my injection pump with bad unwashed fuel and chunks. Hmm. 30,000 miles and 1000 gallons seems to say otherwise. And even tho the car did need the injection pump rebuilt... That happened about 60k miles after the last drop of bio was used. Far enough to prove that it wasn't the bio that caused it. Just because an engineering type can't think outside a big industrial-processed box, don't also assume that creative problem solvers can't. I'm a creative problem solver. Squishing the algae pulp might be as simple as one of those old washing machine roller-dryer things that you had to crank by hand. As for the taxation, there are a number of people that have TRIED to pay the taxes, and the IRS has told them that they cannot accept taxes without a process or a form. Neither exist for home-brew FUEL. Under the most recent ATF rules I have seen, you are allowed to brew something like 400 gallons for personal use without problem. I can't remember if it said per year or per quarter... But it added up to a LOT of fuel. Even at the level I was at when I stopped, I was still fine. I only stopped b/c I wasn't able to get enough clean used WVO to brew.

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Author:	Reflex [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:
Geordi - That sounds like an issue for your state government, I'd advise you to get involved if they are mispending road money like that, its possible that its illegal. Looking it up online, it appears that Florida collects 1.7 billion per year in gas taxes, which is apparantly only a fraction of what they spend on roads(but I couldn't find a figure on just how much they spend on such infrastructure). Here in WA state, almost all gas tax money goes into roads. At the federal level 60% of gas tax money is spent directly on roads and transportation, the other 40% is used in other areas, although it is made up for by the federal budget itself having a percentage dedicated to roads and transportation. Any way you slice it, for most of us, the roads we enjoy are paid for by gas taxes. Skirting those taxes is theft. I agree that there should be an easy method for home producers to pay that tax, and I'm guessing that is why they have not cracked down yet. And I never told you you could not produce BD at home. Its not that difficult, its just basic chemistry. Whoever told you that did not understand the process. I'm glad you have a 'friend' working on algae based fuels, hopefully his project is successful. However if it was really just as easy as 'pressing' the fuel out, then one would have to wonder why the companies involved in research are not touting that feature since it would make raising investment capitol much easier for them if there was confidence that once the algae was grown(the easy part) they could easily convert it into usable oil. There are millions of dollars being put into researching the processing of algae into oil, I really don't think its as simple as a grape press....

Author:	skywarn [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:
regardless of how fuel is made... it comes down to a few court rulings that have been overturned... the reasons were: The Prius - where are the taxes paid when its in ele mode? yes 1/2 mile here and there add up School Bus and city trans including police etc - NCG again, there is no "road" tax for Nat Gas other fuel; Propane - again, you an fill your truck up with LP at the same place you fill your grill up. However the state of UT went to a road tax based on your ODO and time of Reg. which would work for someone like me who runs on 100% Bio 100% of the time. so the tax is based on miles driven, not gallons bought.

Author:	gmctd [ Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:
I would suspect those overturns are due to archaic laws, when only an infinitesmal # of people were home-brewing fuel or using alternates - old laws have a habit of being quickly upgraded to cover upgraded circumstances and situations, as when those minimal numbers begin swelling to seemingly infinite ranks - people will do what's necessary in order to drive - recall the occasional reversion to savagery in the long lines at the gas pumps during the first oil crises That was a brief shocking glimpse of woman in her role as the fair sex, eh?

Author:	Sir Sam [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:26 am ]
Post subject:
skywarn wrote: regardless of how fuel is made... it comes down to a few court rulings that have been overturned... the reasons were: The Prius - where are the taxes paid when its in ele mode? yes 1/2 mile here and there add up School Bus and city trans including police etc - NCG again, there is no "road" tax for Nat Gas other fuel; Propane - again, you an fill your truck up with LP at the same place you fill your grill up. However the state of UT went to a road tax based on your ODO and time of Reg. which would work for someone like me who runs on 100% Bio 100% of the time. so the tax is based on miles driven, not gallons bought. How do they take into account miles driven out of state?

Author:	dgeist [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:
gmctd wrote: - recall the occasional reversion to savagery in the long lines at the gas pumps during the first oil crises You don't have to go back nearly that far. I drove a relief trip for my company (the cable company that serves New Orleans and Baton Rouge) to get some core networking infrastructure replaced with non-waterlogged versions 4 days after Katrina. Man, was I glad that I had 10 gallons of reserve in the back under a blanket. Heading west, the last fuel available at a station was in Tuscaloosa AL (which is quite a ways from NO for folks not familiar). I witnessed people being subdued because they demanded to be let into the line for the one pump at the station reserved for emergency vehicles. After seeing what was happening, I physically blocked one guy from pulling into the lane, was promptly threatened by him and just as promptly thanked and defended by the police present. Come next disaster, I'd like to be able to head to the hills with a trailer to wait things out if I need to (still working on that portable appleseed bio-reactor)

Author:	Threeweight [ Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:
On fuel taxes, in Oregon the state requires all bio-fuels to be blended. So instead of B100, we get B99. Due to the blend requirement, the state is able to get some fuel taxes.