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 Post subject: Lets talk about AIR FILTERS
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:50 am 
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On a old air filter thread I got blasted for wasting my money replacing my air filter at 6k miles so here’s my unscientific proof :lol: I’m at 12.5k miles so this morning I replaced oil and filters. In the early 60’s I worked for Sohio (BP now) when paper filters were just appearing on automobiles, the hand cranks were gone then :lol: We were taught to test them by shinning a light, the trouble light was always handy, behind it and if you could see the light through it that it did not need replaced. I’ve always used this method and have not seen any reason to change. At 6k miles the NAPA gold 2326 did not pass the light test :? When I opened the Purolator A3514 I noticed a big difference :shock: The NAPA was made in the USA and has 102 pleats. The Purolator was made in China and has 69 pleats or 33 less. Each pleat measures roughly 7.5” long and one inch high doubled over (2 inches). So 2 inches times 7.5 inches is 15 square inches per for a total of 495 square inches different. ONE THIRD LESS. Purolator does have a PA series of filters but their site does not list one for the Liberty. I took both filters back to Advanced Auto Parts , along with the used oil, to show the manager why I would not be buying any more filters from him. His suggestion was to get a K&N but I’ve never read anything good about them here. We know DC, now just C, cut a corner by using the gas filter on a diesel and it’s not near big enough and this is a big difference on the element surface size. This morning I drove 3 less then one mile trips, one with a dirty filter, one with no filter and one with a new filter and could tell a big difference in low speed performance between them.

Any comments besides buying WIX filters exclusively, does the K&N deserve it's bad reputation :?:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:20 pm 
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I actually tried a K&N a few years back on my old gasser '87 Subaru wagon. After about 3K miles, there was so much crud and dirt built up on the throttle valve and in the throat of the carb they were turning black. I junked the K&N and put the stock paper filter back in - carb stayed relatively clean after that.

My friends down in TX, who used to live in WY until a couple years ago, told me of one mining company out in WY that tried switching to a K&N style filter to save money on filter changeouts. Gent told him that inside of 6 months they were rebuilding the engine on every piece of equipment they'd installed one of these filters on, they passed thru so much dirt that it ate up the bearings and cylinder liners in short order.

I'd agree, stick with what you know works, a Wix/NAPA Gold. I've had good results so far running an Amsoil synthetic myself.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:23 pm 
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Yes, they do - but you should factor in the equally bad reputation of the average owner\driver to get the truer picture.

Air filter design follows two seperate concepts -
- pleated paper filter media, where airborne particles, too large to pass thru the media interstices, are trapped and held in the paper - use'em, pitch'em when dirty
- oil-saturated foamed screen, where static electricity, created as air flows thru the filter media, attracts the airborne particles to the oil, which saturates and holds them until time to clean - this involves washing the filter element, drying it, then re-saturating it with oil spray, spec'ed and provided by the oem - time consuming.
This type harks back to the good ole days, when all infernal combustion engine'd vehicles, including lawnmowers, had oiled filters - absolutely functional, but whaddapainindeolebutt to maintain.

Your engine is an air pump that will pump 1.4 liters of atmosphere every revolution of the crankshaft - dump in a little fuel, factor in some heat, and voila! you gotta infernal combustion power unit.

FYI - 3.79 liters is one us gallon............

For this argument, we'll ignore basic VE - volumetric efficiency - which is inherent in the engine's design, and vehicle residency.

A gasoline-fueled engine, where air flow is controlled by a throttle plate, displaces the designed volume of air only when the throttle plate is exactly 90deg perpendicular to the intake plenum, with the plate and shaft presenting some restriction to flow - power output can be measured by the level of vacuum in the intake manifold
Since the throttle plate is at some small angle from fully closed at most operational events, the actual volume of pumped air is considerably less than displacement capability - idle, 30-45-60mph does not get full Wide Open Throttle air flow - 90mph, more than likely yes.
Engineers factor that operational concept into the design of the intake air path, which includes the air filter - it is designed to flow the average displacement volume, and to fit within the contraints of available real estate.

A Diesel-fueled engine does not have a throttle plate to restrict air flow, so it will pump air at it's designed displacement at idle and any rpm up to WOT (ECM-controlled fuelrate is Diesel throttle) - idle-30-45-60-90mph = full displacement flowrate
Diesel engineers must design the air intake path, incl the air filter, to allow full flow at all rpm, then fit that within the constraints of available real estate.

When both engine types are offered in the same vehicle with same real estate limitations and constraints, they are faced with a dilema: laws governing flowrate are written in stone - a basic law states that to increase flow rate capability in a system, cross-sectional area of the intake path must be increased - in a system where that cannot be accomplished, as in the KJ, the engineers have to punt: that would be the difference in the KJ V6 air box and the CRD airbox.

Which also presents another problem: the Diesel air filter requires much greater filtration at greater flowrate than even the 3.7 V6 - the Diesel filter can be designed with more pleats than the gasser (patooie!) version, but the vehicle constraints are the limitations to increased flowrate capability: too many pleats will restrict airflow.

Thus, if separate p\n filters are offered for the KJ V6 and CRD, don't accept the V6 version

Increased airflow can also be improved by changing the filter design: oiled screen air filters offer greater air flow than paper air filters in the same cross-sectional area.

Far as the K&N - the problem is the design: they are oiled foamed-screen type - the screen area is large to allow greater airflow, and the oil-saturation attracts and holds the dust particles - if it is not cleaned and oiled regularly, it does not filter air as designed.
And, a K&N seldom fits the oem airbox.

Far as the owner - the problem is the maintenance required: the cleaning and saturation process is soon overlooked in our 'remove\replace\trash-can the dirty one' world - thus, the owner is more to blame than the manufacturer.

For racing, the un-oiled K&N is suitable for it's highly improved airflow, as the occasional run thru the event is a semi-controlled environment, where there are not columns of vehicles in front of your vehicle to stir up dirt\dust\sand\whatever, which will damage your engine.
Pulling events require greater filtration than street, but the air filtration system on those are modified, with no dependency on factory system constraints.

K&N does offer paper filters, but they were not as popular as the screen versions - the pleated paper muffles the turbo whistle, where the screen versions do not.

Now, the K&N cone-type, suggested to replace the restrictive factory airbox, and cheaper copies, are used to replace the airbox, but the cold-air function is lost because the cone is totally exposed to engine bay ambience, including the extra dust drawn in by the fan and stirred up by the front wheels - watch someone offroading in the dirt to get a better sense of that scenario.

Thus, the bad rap must be shared by K&N and vehicle owner, alike - IMO, of course

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.................

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Last edited by gmctd on Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:50 pm 
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I've heard too many people with remarks similar to Retmil's - put in a K+N and noticed dust in the intake at the next oil change. I'm sure owner neglect can aggravate the problem, but I've heard too many bad experiences from people who are meticulous with their maintenance. So, no K+N for me. Plus, I'm lazy. I prefer throwing away a dirty filter.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:56 pm 
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Joe:

The "dirtyness" of the filter is subject to where you live (I think). I live in a semi-rural area and change out the filter with the paper Purolator at 12k. I have checked the old filter with a light as my father taught me and so far I have found them at least servicable at 12k (I still use the stock filter set up). In my younger days, I remember blowing out old air filters with compressed air to "clean" them so that they could continue being used. These days I just change them out.

So, with air pollution much less here than in OH (I lived just outside of Cleveland for a while-am and glad I don't anymore) I suspect that the Purolator is fine for my purposes. Even in the summer when I am out on dusty dirt roads the filter is still ok for 12k so I have to think your problem is the air in an urban area.

It does not mean that your observations are wrong, but the paper Purolator (even with 1/3 less surface area) seems to be ok here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:46 pm 
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I did the same calculation a while back with Stock OEM vs Amsoil EA. The EA had not only ~40 more pleats but the pleats were actually 1/4 longer. It had almost twice the filtering surface as the OEM.

The one thing I thought about after gmctd's explaination...the diesel is unrestricted when it comes to air flow by any kind of "throttle plate" but it is restricted by air box design/placement. For those that installed the 2002 air box with the snorkel...you are probably getting less air than with the OEM CRD air box design...so the 2002 Air Box does regulate the air flow a bit. Now I have built a cold air catch that gets more air in the faster I travel. If you follow this train of thought...when I don't need as much air at low speeds the 2002 air box limits intake air a bit...when I need more, speed helps...but at low speed and high demand it might be a bit less. Just food for thought.

http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb97 ... P_0209.jpg

Just drag your cursor to find the air scoop and air catch

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Last edited by DarbyWalters on Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:26 pm 
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Thanks for all the replies :) Wife and I ran some errands this evening and the CRD is night and day different off the line before the turbo spins so the NAPA filter at 6k miles definetly needed replaced. At least it kept the dirt out of my engine :o One time this evening from a stop it actually unintensionally broke loose and the ESP came on :lol: I'll keep a eye on the Purolator.

So gmctd, are you saying the K&N is ok IF properly maintained? If so that's no problem for me to keep it clean. Since it looks like I'll be changing it at least every 6k the cost will be recovered on it quickly. But if it lets crap in I don't want one.

vtdog. The filter was covered with a very fine gray dust. I could not believe I could not see any light through it :shock: Definetly polution caused and all of my driving is city or busy interstate driving so it would be expected.

retmill. When Mt St Helen erupted K&N had ads saying their filters did not clog and everyone elses did. Sounds good but where did the dirt go :cry: You and I know it went into the engines. It can't just not clog :!:

Darby. Is there a mail order source for the Amsoil filters and how long do you think they last percentage wise compared to oem? As I recall I saw Amsoil on the Lubrication Specialists site. I'll check there.

Thank again for your thoughts :D

Joe

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:00 pm 
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If used as designed, the K&N saturated-screen filter is functional - if you tend toward lack-a-daisical maintenance, a quality paper element is best - it may clog up with extended use, but , if installed correctly, will just shut you down when clogged, usually with little or no engine damage.

YRMVC, eh?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:04 pm 
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JJsKJ sells the filters at a great price. They will last 100,000 miles so they are cheaper than OEM style replacements. His website is

http://www.HotRodOil.com

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:18 pm 
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DarbyWalters wrote:
JJsKJ sells the filters at a great price. They will last 100,000 miles so they are cheaper than OEM style replacements. His website is

http://www.HotRodOil.com


Thanks for the link :D There are several EAxx filters listed. If it will last 100,000 miles then it would seem it needs cleaned right?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:52 pm 
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Could the dirt visible in the intake simply be oil residue from the k&n which catches dirt that would normally bounce of the plastic ducting, butterfly etc.?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:34 pm 
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Not every case will be similar, but some can be attributed to poor installation fitup - the rubber surround gasket must fit tightly within the airbox housing, sealing the raw side from the filtered side to the turbo intake.
The entire foamed screen must be saturated to the extent indicated by the oem

I cannot specifically comment on instances where the airbox was replaced by a bare filter, but it is usually in the direct blast of the coolant fan, which is hurling rocks at high speed into the engine bay - that, and a gasser (patooie!) filter is not suitable for a Diesel engine, even tho it may look the same - if it is the same, it requires much more maintenance on the Diesel.

I have a K&N cylinder-type filter, intended to replace the airbox on a GM 6.5 - if installed as intended, the rubber duct seal is clamped firmly around a piece of steel tubing - could be pvc tubing but the increased i.d. will cost some airflow - if installed inside the filterbox the clamp-type seal is basically incompatible with the oem intake duct, which would result in contaminants in the turbo inlet.

It can be comical, sometimes unbelievable to see people's interpretation of oem instructions, or attempted emulation of other installations, take practical form.

Improvisation is a risky business with a Diesel, as you may imagine.

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 Post subject: Which Amsoil Air Filter?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:00 pm 
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What is the Amsoil part number for the air filter replacement that has more and bigger folds (but superior filtering capacity)?

Thanks. My CRD needs a Christmas present.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:06 pm 
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I believe it is a Ea201

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:17 am 
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Joe Romas wrote:
DarbyWalters wrote:
JJsKJ sells the filters at a great price. They will last 100,000 miles so they are cheaper than OEM style replacements. His website is

http://www.HotRodOil.com


Thanks for the link :D There are several EAxx filters listed. If it will last 100,000 miles then it would seem it needs cleaned right?


I have been waiting on someone to answer Joe Romas question about having to clean the amsoil filter but it seams to have slipped by. I, also, would like to know the answer and just how it is to be cleaned if needed. It did not address this on the web site that I could find however it did mention the 100,000 mile warranty

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:02 am 
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Scott.

I went to this site and with the Ae (as I recall) number was able to find the filter Darby has. Scroll down near the bottom near the bottom. You can use compressed air at a 45 degree angle or vacuum it :D
https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/eaa.aspx

Joe

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:57 pm 
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Scott Langohr wrote:
I have been waiting on someone to answer Joe Romas question about having to clean the amsoil filter but it seams to have slipped by. I, also, would like to know the answer and just how it is to be cleaned if needed. It did not address this on the web site that I could find however it did mention the 100,000 mile warranty


Cleaning instructions are on this AMSOIL page, about halfway down. I just Googled for "cleaning amsoil air filter". I need to do this in the next few days myself.

- Chris

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:26 am 
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I have been using the Ea series drop in filters in both my KJ and XJ with great results in very dusty off road conditions and they have been performing great with no signs of dust in the intake like I was getting with the K&N's I used to run in these conditions. I ran K&N's on many different vehicles over many years in varying conditions but found that in the dusty conditions here in the desert I live in now they just don't filter worth a darn. I had fine dust in the intake of both a GMC van and GMC S15 I used to drive here. My 03 w/ K&N drop in also had dirt in the intake as did the K&N cone equipped FIPK on my 04 KJ (only there due to not being able to run a stock air box)

Since switching to the Amsoil Ea series filters I no longer see any signs of dust in the intakes on any of my 3 Jeeps. You may be able to get away w/ K&N's in less dusty climates but why take the chance and then have to go through the maintenance ritual they require?

Anyhow, Please pm me for a price quote on the Ea filter. The price shown online is Not your price through me. :wink:

BTW, I clean mine w/ compressed air but I have also used a shop vac with good results.

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 Post subject: Amsoil filter
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:10 pm 
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Thanks! Better get mine ordered. I remebered that page but must not have noticed the scroll bars. It explained it very well. I have about 5,000 mile on a purolator filter. Sounds like I need to change it soon to increase the air flow. This site is the best! Free expert advice and discounted materials. :P :P

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:23 pm 
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Installed a filter minder. Use puralator filters. Haven't seen any dust/dirt in intake.

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