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Thrust/Release Bearing replacement
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29489		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  daxiet [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:27 am ]
Post subject:  Thrust/Release Bearing replacement
My wife called saying the jeep is screaching when she pushes the clutch in, gets louder the further the clutch pedal is depressed.

Anyone know how difficult this process is? I have been over the service manual, but that doesn't give a clear indication as to the actual trials involved.

What else would you recommend replacing while the gearbox is detached? Within reason? Pilot bearing? Will check clutch and pressure plate before splashing the cash out on new ones.

Rumour has it you can't just buy the release bearing, you need to buy the entire kit? Is this the case.

Thanks
Author:  tonycrd [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Stop! There's nothing wrong with it. All manual 2.5's screach. I believe it's the flywheel. ( dual plate system )

Here's a simple test: when you shut the engine down you hear it go 'iep...iep' for just a sec. No problem. Can grow old with that sound.

If you don't like it: change the flywheel. Will cost ya...about 400 euros. And you need to take gearbox and transfercase of.

Be careful, that's a lot of weight. What you can do is take the tranfer case of the gearbox first....

And if you are planning to go through al that trouble I'd advise you to replace the entire clutch and pressure bearing and front oilseal of gearbox.

It cannot be the pilot bearing in the crankshaft because it also screaches in neutral with the cluth released....

Or maybe this is bs and you do have a release bearing problem...and here it is. Nº 11, partnumber 53008342:
Image
Author:  daxiet [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:49 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks,

The noise you're mentioning, when switching the Jeep off I know is because of the dual mass flywheel, I love the sound, sounds like a truck turning off.

The current issue:
DC have said Pilot bearing, I squashed that claim with the same reasoning as yours, the pilot bearing would squeal 24x7 clutch in/out. The release bearing however is only used when disengading the clutch plate from flywheel.

The symptom (unverified as yet, still 150kms away from home, thankfully using my trusty Audi) is that as soon as the clutch pedal is depressed there is a loud squealing sound. Now the latest symptom is the gears are getting hard to change. I hoping the pressure plate it still fine.

The clutch plate alone is R3650.00 and the release bearing R368.00. Can't believe how expensive these parts are.
Author:  gmctd [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Reminder: never ever do anything in the bellhousing\flywheel area without replacing the pilot bearing - you'll just be doing the whole thing over again when the pilot bearing reaches the end of it's useful life - WORST CASE scenario: it eats the end of the input shaft, requiring transmission rebuild - cheap insurance at less than 10bucks

The dual-mass flywheel may make odd rattly noises, but 50kmi would be good indicator for t\o bearing\pilot bearing service if vehicle is mainly driven in stop-go conditions, where constant de-clutching is normal - highway-accumulated mileage puts little stress on the t\o bearing - even if the t\o bearing allows external service\greasing, increased noise is the indicator for prompt service

Any sudden increase in d\m flywheel noises is good indicator for promp service - again, with the pilot bearing plus the t\o bearing if the bearing outside race has any play on the inner collar race - prevents rework at some later\sooner date

If you separate the xfer case\transmission, you will also need the output shaft seal which separates the fluid reserves
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
The pilot bearing is a roller bearing pressed into the dual mass flywheel, not sure how easy that will be to change. If you're pulling it all apart, I always vote for doing it one and replacing the clutch disc/pressure plate too. If you buy a kit, it'll come with all 3 things you need (disc/press plate/T.O bearing).

Don't forget you cannot maching the DMF. If the friction surface is badly scorn to where maching would be necessary, you'll have to replace the flywheel.
Author:  daxiet [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks for the info,

I have had a listen to the sound, it has progressed. What started as a squeal only when the clutch was depressed, is now a scratching sound with the clutch engaged and a vicious squeel when disengaged. But is constantly has an associated scratching sound. Either the release bearing has broken up, or something else is fishy.
Author:  tonycrd [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Daxiet, there is an aftermarket clutch and flywheel set made by LUK from Germany.

Can you get that in South Africa? Lot's cheaper then MOPAR.

By what you discribe I am afraid the release bearing is broken and is now eating away at the pressure plate... :cry:
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
The OEM Mopar parts are made by LUK for the KJ applications so those are actually the stock pieces.
Author:  daxiet [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:39 am ]
Post subject: 
How difficult is this exercise? I have been quoted R6935.00 by after market garage ~US$900.

I don't want to remove the 4x4 transfercase from the gearbox, is it difficult to get out and back in again?

Luk in RSA don't have a kit for the Jeep (no surprise, agents or nothing here). I think the entire release bearing has failed, or siezed, thus the clutch is not fully disengaging. All this in a couple kms of driving yesterday. I am concerned the pressure plate may have suffered damage.

Thanks
Author:  tonycrd [ Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:40 am ]
Post subject: 
$900 including parts that is? That doesn't sound to bad...


I just paid $522 to have the front differencial oil seal replaced :cry: For a clutch job I'd be looking at $1200/$1500.

MrMopar64 wrote:
The OEM Mopar parts are made by LUK for the KJ applications so those are actually the stock pieces.


outside the US anything with a MOPAR sticker on it is 20 times the normal price....
Author:  daxiet [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have completed the gearbox exercise, 9hrs odd.

I have one issue after all my efforts, the hydraulic clutch, the slave cylinders shaft flops around, as such when reinstalled, I suspect it dropped down below the release lever, it is now full extend.

Anyone know if the shaft is supposed to be floppy (solid straight shaft, but drops down with gravity), is this normal, if so how am I supposed to align it so that it meets up with the release lever?

This is now what stands between me and the satisfaction of completing the job. I will remove the slave cylinder again tomorrow, take about 15mins to unbolt (1/10 turns are only possible because of space constraints on the top nut). I just couldn't survive another hour under the vehicle.

For the record, I will never touch another gearbox, the thing is hard to keep balanced and is exceedingly heavy. I stongly discourage doing this job.
Author:  gmctd [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Use a plastic baggie over the rod and around the slave cylinder to hold the drive rod in position, insert the slave cylinder such that the rod enters it's assigned receptacle, push the slave cylinder in and bolt it down - the plastic baggie won't make no nevermind to clutch operation - rip the outside part of the baggie off of the belhousing so it don't look tacky, and yer good to go.................
Author:  daxiet [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks,

If all else fails the "baggie" it will be, I am still pondering how the hell I am going to get that piston compressed back. The question remains, is it normal for the piston to require Viagra for Hydraulic systems or is something worn (something that costs $$$)?

I went to sleep last night having flash backs of the gearbox removal and re-install. On top of this I feel like I spent 9hrs at the gym, my abs, shoulders, neck, etc are stuffed. I don't know how I am going to be able to get back under the vehicle today to try rectify the slave cylinder and I have the 2 top bell housing bolts to tighten still (so far hand tightened, approx 15 mins to hand tighten 1 bolt, microscopic turns with breaks to get blood flow back to my hand).
Author:  gmctd [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Place the baggie over the assembly, hold it taught, insert the bagged assembly till the rod contacts the t\o arm, push the slave cyl into place, install the fasteners, lock'em down, tear off the exposed baggie, and yer good to go - so easy, a caveman could do it...............
Author:  daxiet [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:57 am ]
Post subject: 
This caveman is confused, ok, I didn't need to make use of the baggie trick, pulled the release lever as close as possible to the slave cylinder hole,supported the shaft to make solid contact with the release lever. Happy days, my joy could not be surpassed, I was seconds away from putting my work to the test... Not quite I now have slight pressure on my clutch, the same as I have on my Audi, but not what I expect to find on a large 4x4. The thing doesn't push the release lever hard enough.

Removed it all, tested by hand, I can't come close to holding the piston back, then tested letting it go to max, at max extension the clutch pedal goes solid as a rock. I am seriously confused, how difficult can this process be? Thought I may have got air in the system, but the fact that at max extension the clutch goes solid disples this theory.

While typing this I suspect maybe the piston is sliding down the release lever shaft, but how can I stop it doing that? If indeed it is. I am seconds away from calling it a day and placing my tail between my legs and sending it in to a gearbox shop. So close, but yet so far.
Author:  gmctd [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:36 am ]
Post subject: 
From one cave-man to another: the slave cylinder has a spring behind the piston, intended to keep tension on the rod\arm interface such that the rod doesn't fall loose after de-clutching - you're also feeling normal hydraulic resistance as fluid recourses thru the pistons\cups in the slave and master cylinders - it's all normal for modern (read: oriental) hydraulic clutch-release systems

What I do is compress\release the slave cylinder several times in a position that orients the inlet at the top, where air bubbles will naturally collect - this bleeds the air out of the slave and into the master and thence the reservoir - you can tell the air is out when the stroke is completely firm and there is no bubbly hiss to fluid movement in the system - when satisfactory, hold it vertically, slowly relax your pressure and let it extend slowly, place it in position, compress it into place, and it should be bled and ready to go

The slave is lower than the master\reservoir, so denser fluid will gravitate to the bottom and any remaining air will rise to the top over a period of time - depressing\releasing the clutch pedal will help the process

FYI - the new slave cylinder comes replete with a nylon retainer on the rod, holding it depressed - first time you declutch, the straps break and you're in business - they're very handy for the job at hand, but I haven't seen any available separately
Author:  daxiet [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks, I really appreciate the info.

I have tried so many different things with no success, what has got me stumped is that the piston is being compressed back after a push the clutch pedal, the onlmy thing with a springy nature in the clutch system is the pressure plate. The piston itself as you say has a spring which tries to keep the piston pushed out (every so gentley), but for that piston to be pushed back, means the release lever is pushing it back, if this is the case, then I suspect the the pressure plate is not behaving, does this make sense? (strange, because even with the damaged release bearing which was only 3/4 the length it should have been, it was able to release the clutch plate enough to change gears with difficulty).

Or can it be that the system has air in it, thus not appling sufficient pressure to the the release lever? If there is air, would the clutch pedal go rock hard when the piston hits max extension?
Author:  daxiet [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Success for a moment, I tried your method, pointing the slave vertical and pumping it in and out, a large amount of air bubbled out the resevoir. Once no more bubbling, closed up inserted the slave, tested and it felt exactly as before (well so I thought). Went about cleaning up, then decide to just fire up the engine and at the same time tried the gears, bingo engaged 1st and reverse. Quickly shutdown hopped under the vehicle to ensure all bellhousing bolt were in tightened and accounted for. With great happiness (tail wagging) I reversed out (found my brakes weren't working, no power assist (blonde moment, disconnected the vacuum pipe to get to the clutch resevoir, quickly fixed that) however I was then stuck in the driveway, the clutch got softer and no longer operated the release lever.

Now a quick question, I can't see any fluid leaking anywhere, so I don't think there is a leak, any ideas?

At least I know the release lever, bearing and pressure plate work, the clutch was always very stiff and jerky (must have been the release bearing all along), now when it briefly worked the clutch was allmost as soft as a cars.
Author:  gmctd [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, from your description, I suspect the master or slave has commenced leaking due to the extended extension\compression resulted from the R&R procedures, possibly due to water-pollution, a natural occurrance with alchohol-based fluids - I have recovered some systems by removing the master\slave cylinders, disassembling\cleaning\reassembling each, and going back in with fresh brake fluid - sometimes I just bite the bullet and replace - depends on accumulated mileage - f'rinstance, at 202kmi, my Dodge got new cylinders, altho after pulling the oem's down, they could have been 'recovered' and are , in fact, in the truck box as spares
Author:  daxiet [ Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:42 am ]
Post subject: 
R&R?

If it where leaking, wouldn't I find fluid leaking? Furthemore, if I strip the units down, sure bleeding would be near impossible, these are "sealed" units?

Thanks
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