LOST JEEPS :: View topic - What the puck, over?!!

Cool - no prob, just exploring the unspoken alternatives to Chrysler-specific employment

Also, just figgered out the why and how of the puck failures - it's not clear that the puck electrical heater coins are or are not failing, but, design-limited to only 85degF, the burned appearance of the thermo-plastic puck and harness connector is clearly indicating temps much higher than that - it's the internal electrical connection where the large lead-in conductors are inserted into the formed alumimum-plate conductor clips (pics 5,4,2,1) - shoulda had reinforcing steel spring-clips over those, as aluminum is not very 'springy' when heated - the aluminum loses it's already limited clamping tension, the electrical connection goes resistive, the lead-in conductors heat up, burn the plastic, fuse doesn't blow, fuel leaks - it is a manufacturing defect which could result in failure even if the fuel manager is full of fuel and the puck is fully immersed, therein - low fuel level would exacerbate the problem - maybe rough handling during production line assembly causes failures in some pucks - or, maybe the steel spring clips were part of the design, but are missing from some pucks - ours had no additional spring-clip reinforcements, but the mechanical connections were electrically pristine, no sign of impending failure(s) at 60kmi, as can be seen in the pics - 'course, neither does it get very cold down here, wintertimes - que sera, sera, eh?

Author:	gmctd [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:09 am ]
Post subject:	What the puck, over?!!
Wanna talk aboutcher pucked up!!! Any questions? Exorcised puck........... Numismatism, anyone........... And........ And, also......... Bad conductor Karma, here, folks.......... Furthermore.......... Etc.......... Etc, etc......... Notwithstanding........... Finis.......... For those who're interested, this is a solid-state heater puck, using those same variable resistor Varistor devices used in yer TV to limit current, but with a reverse temperature coefficient: when they're cold they draw enuff current to get warm - when they're warm at a certain temp, in this case 85degF, they taper current off, drawing just enuff current to maintain 85deg That's yer Varistor, that small round coin on the aluminum conductor\sink, another one visible just around the corner, there, between the sheets (sorry, no porn here, folks)- the upper sheet is power, the lower is ground - those springs on the plastic cover, of which there were three (one currently resides snugly in the KJ engine bay, somewhere), one for each varistor, compress the varistors between the sheets for max current when cold, reducing tension as they warm up, further reducing current thru the varistors - it's pfm, folks - pfm For those whose interest is piqued, that's the Inlet Fuel Temperature Sensor that is strangely vacant from it's assigned berth, having sought other employment, elsewhere................ Check elsewhere out, here: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... 927#320927

Author:	Sir Sam [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:18 am ]
Post subject:
that is phucked up

Author:	retmil46 [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:58 am ]
Post subject:
Sir Sam wrote: that is phucked up ......and exactly why that POS no longer resides in my CRD.

Author:	Uffe [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:14 am ]
Post subject:
Darn - I had thought it was the CCV puck, I wanted to see that beast open since the danish dealers apparantly never have changed one of those on the KJ. The part is not even registered in their purchase system, so I was the first person to ask for a new one (for maintenance). So that is the fuel heater - what about the cooling system heater? Oh boy if a KJ was for free we could blow everything apart and do huge research into the parts we wanted to know more about

Author:	widowmaker [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What the puck, over?!!
gmctd wrote: Wanna talk aboutcher pucked up!!! Any questions? - it's pfm, folks - pfm I've narrowed it down to these? PFM Plan For Maintenance PFM Please Forgive Me PFM Pray for Me PFM Pure Freaking Magic

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Author:	cxturboboost [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:36 am ]
Post subject:	Remove
GMCTD, Are you recommending we all remove this? Can I ask where it is located? Thanks Pete

Author:	fastRob [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:09 am ]
Post subject:	Relentless Tinkerer, No doubt
cxturboboost wrote: GMCTD, Are you recommending we all remove this? Can I ask where it is located? Thanks Pete Pete, It is my opinion that a relentless tinkerer is always looking for improvement. When taking ideas off the web one must always use one's own discretion. The Great Mighty Communicator of Turbo Diesel's (GMCTD) holds high esteem and a sense of humor just not godhood....., yet. R

Author:	gmctd [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:14 am ]
Post subject:
You are correct, Widowmaker - all the above................ That is the plan, CX - plus, the rejected items on either side of it - look at Evicted............ The CCV puck has been exposed, Uffe, with show'n'tell - prolly in CRD Tech forum - CCV is nothing more than a high-volume low-pressure (vacuum) regulator\centrifugal separator, intended to hurl the denser oil from the vapor and channel it directly back into the valve cover, and regulate vacuum from the turbo inlet to ~6"H2O at 2000rpm - far as maintenance, ~50kmi would be my rec, due to heat-hardening of the rubber diaphragm.......... Science 101 here, folks: - a good test would be to get a pail and a long section of clear vinyl or poly tubing, 3/8" x 6' - fill the pail with water - remove the dipstick, place it such that it's not in the way, but you can remember where it is after the test - place one end of the tube over the dipstick tube, use a tyrap to ensure an air-tite seal - start the engine, place the other end in the pail on the ground - note the condition of the water: - slightly bubbling = normal - roiling like a bunch of piranha on a kitten = excessive blowby - rev the engine up to ~2000rpm, noting the water level in the tube: should rise slightly, no more than ~3-6" - if greater than that, yer CCV puck is prolly bad

Author:	warp2diesel [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:40 am ]
Post subject:	Chromalox heat tape in a waffer
Chromalox heat tape has been around for many years and has worked well for it's applications like water lines and outdoor equipment contact heating. http://www.heatersplus.com/srtrace.htm Take the same technology and put it into a puck and you have what Chrysler chose to heat up our fuel. Loose the fuel around it and try to run it in air bubbles it over heats and fries. Had the bean counters stayed out to lunch and the lift pump stayed on the drawing board, the heater puck would have worked as designed. It is too bad that the bean counters are not held accountable for their actions and have to pay for the warranties and pay for our lift pumps out of their own pockets. The other over sight with this puck is that the Chromalox heater tape uses a thermostat to shut off the power when it gets over 35f - 55f depending on the application, and this heater puck is left to it's own process to regulate it's self. Steve

Author:	onthehunt [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:
I fail to see the problem with this design. No, it's not state-of-the-art computer controlled cool, but it does work.

Author:	warp2diesel [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Problem with puck design
Assuming in a perfect world and there is never a air bubble to make the heating elements run dry, over heat, and burn up as did mine that was replaced under warranty. Then, when the fuel gets too warm from both getting heated up by the fuel injection system and when the heater puck does not shut off, the ECM cuts back on fuel and reducing power out put. Placing a fuel cooler on the return line for hot weather operation and a thermostat on the filter head to shut off the heater would solve the problem. Members who run in hot climates will unplug the heater and only use it if they are going to travel to cold destinations. Assuming the self regulating heater puck works as well as a Chromalox self regulating heater tape, I will still be cooking at 100f, I know I have had electricians hook the thermostat up NO instead of NC and people have gotten their hands burned. For some reason my hands are more heat resistant giving me time to get my hand off the heater tape. Even at moderate temperatures, if the PUCK DRYS IT FRIES As did mine and other members Steve

Author:	onthehunt [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:25 am ]
Post subject:
I think you had a filter/line leak that caused your crd to get abnormal amounts of air in the filter head. If the problem was as bad as everyone made it to be there would be a hell of alot more of these burned up. Mine works just fine. A couple of burned connectors on the internet proves nothing. For every one burned there are thousands working just fine. ONCE AGAIN- I do not/have not worked for Chrysler or their suppliers at anytime in my life.

Author:	gmctd [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:34 am ]
Post subject:
Maybe not Chrysler, but how 'bout Dodge or Jeep?

Author:	onthehunt [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:31 am ]
Post subject:
Negative on working for any light-duty vehicle manufacturer. I'll agree you can heat the fuel in more expensive ways. I just don't have a problem with the stock fuel system. I feel it is adequate. You can always make things better with more money. I guess I just worry first-time owners that visit this place will freak out and think they have to modify this and their Jeep will start on fire if they don't unplug that. You could just drive it.

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Author:	gmctd [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:10 am ]
Post subject:
Cool - no prob, just exploring the unspoken alternatives to Chrysler-specific employment Also, just figgered out the why and how of the puck failures - it's not clear that the puck electrical heater coins are or are not failing, but, design-limited to only 85degF, the burned appearance of the thermo-plastic puck and harness connector is clearly indicating temps much higher than that - it's the internal electrical connection where the large lead-in conductors are inserted into the formed alumimum-plate conductor clips (pics 5,4,2,1) - shoulda had reinforcing steel spring-clips over those, as aluminum is not very 'springy' when heated - the aluminum loses it's already limited clamping tension, the electrical connection goes resistive, the lead-in conductors heat up, burn the plastic, fuse doesn't blow, fuel leaks - it is a manufacturing defect which could result in failure even if the fuel manager is full of fuel and the puck is fully immersed, therein - low fuel level would exacerbate the problem - maybe rough handling during production line assembly causes failures in some pucks - or, maybe the steel spring clips were part of the design, but are missing from some pucks - ours had no additional spring-clip reinforcements, but the mechanical connections were electrically pristine, no sign of impending failure(s) at 60kmi, as can be seen in the pics - 'course, neither does it get very cold down here, wintertimes - que sera, sera, eh?

Author:	retmil46 [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:
Remember also, once upon a time in another thread, a senior UK tech on another forum hinted they were having the same problems over in Europe (even had a pic of a leaking heater connection), and that there was some type of mod/TSB/recall in the works by Chrysler to correct this. FWIW, my feeling is that this is far more than one or two isolated instances - there were enough complaints and occurrences for our own NHTSA to take an official look into it - regardless of their brain-dead conclusion that heat from the turbo was at fault. gmctd, on air flow from the CCV - I've heard that the main vacuum pump (supplies vacuum for power brakes, boost controller, other normal automotive duties) actually vents itself inside the timing cover/crankcase, such that any air it pumps has to be vented out thru the CCV - therefore if you end up with a leak on the vacuum system, it's going to be dumping a significant amount of air into the crankcase and out thru the CCV.

Author:	fastRob [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Puck Failure With Fuel Lift?
gmctd wrote: Cool - no prob, just exploring the unspoken alternatives to Chrysler-specific employment Also, just figgered out the why and how of the puck failures - it's not clear that the puck electrical heater coins are or are not failing, but, design-limited to only 85degF, the burned appearance of the thermo-plastic puck and harness connector is clearly indicating temps much higher than that - it's the internal electrical connection where the large lead-in conductors are inserted into the formed alumimum-plate conductor clips (pics 5,4,2,1) - shoulda had reinforcing steel spring-clips over those, as aluminum is not very 'springy' when heated - the aluminum loses it's already limited clamping tension, the electrical connection goes resistive, the lead-in conductors heat up, burn the plastic, fuse doesn't blow, fuel leaks - it is a manufacturing defect which could result in failure even if the fuel manager is full of fuel and the puck is fully immersed, therein - low fuel level would exacerbate the problem - maybe rough handling during production line assembly causes failures in some pucks - or, maybe the steel spring clips were part of the design, but are missing from some pucks - ours had no additional spring-clip reinforcements, but the mechanical connections were electrically pristine, no sign of impending failure(s) at 60kmi, as can be seen in the pics - 'course, neither does it get very cold down here, wintertimes - que sera, sera, eh? Mighty Gmctd, Did the Puck fail with the fuel lift pump in place and functioning? Was there fuel in the tank at failure? Was the failure as catastrophic as viewed? R

Author:	gmctd [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:
That vacuum pump scenario seems very likely, but, since it is a low-volume affair, the effluent should also be small - and there are a couple or several DTC's to indicate vacuum system problems - been intending to look into that, but it hasn't come up yet, so the squeeky wheel gets the grease - no time like the present, I suppose - be right back with more.............or, less: there's a dearth of info on that vacuum pump - manual sez 'remove stuff from engine - remove vacuum pump - install vacuum pump - put removed stuff back on engine' - whadda joke on the unfortunate Jeep tech whose turn it is in the CRD-repair barrel.............

Author:	gmctd [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:
#2son's oem fuel manager head\heater puck did not fail, Rob - this is just show'n'tell - intent, purpose, and scope of this thread is to define the operational and failure modes of the fuel heater puck with it's intricate internal intricacies - this thread is resulted with the replacement of the now-useless primer pump and difficult to replace filter element and possibly defective fuel heater module with a better fuel manager head, DCJ-approved, top-loaded for convenience, here: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... 927#320927 - the fuel heater is t-stat controlled, and the entire unit is for an engine with greater fuel rate than ours - it's mo' bettah, works fine, lasts a long time - just another viable option for improvement of the little orphaned mule......... And, as always: show'n'tell rules!

Author:	warp2diesel [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Putting failure rates in perspective
In Aurora, IL there are three Liberty CRDs. Out of these three CRDs all three of them have had the puck fail and leak fuel. Mine has a lift pump and the other two are stock with out lift pumps. On the other two all we had to do to get the heater plug to leak was to pump up hand primer as t was designed and the leak was good enough for Chrysler to replace it under warranty, all three of them. If you want to break this into three categories, 1) Those who know they have a problem and get it fixed, 2) Those who don't know they have a problem and the dealer may or may not know about the problem, 3) The few who have not had a problem. An acceptable warranty failure rate would be 2%. If we were to assume that Aurora was a true representative sample (like political polls), there would be 5 Liberty CRDs in this town of 157,xxx and 3 failures of the puck would represent a 60% failure rate. Since all three of us found each other and have seen no other CRDs around Aurora, I would suspect the real failure rate is 100% for Aurora, IL. If you have no fuel leakage at the heater plug and your unit is stock, you better buy a lottery ticket before your luck runs out. So far my lift pump has fixed my problem.