LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Turbo Boost fooler

Well, I do see black smoke. This is a stock tune. Would a bleeder help? We have an 05, I'm sure it had the F37 update since the TC was replaced at the dealer.

Get a vacuum T and a fish tank air valve to control the bleed?

OK, it's not thick smoke. I can still see something though. I've done the ORM and cleaned the MAP. The waste gate looked vacuum controlled to me. What's that big diaphram with a hose going to it on top of the turbo? I'll look again to make sure. Many turbos use vacuum to close the waste gate. So adding a bleed would keep it boosting longer.

maxxgraphix wrote:

EXCEPT WE HAVE NO WASTEGATE!

Boost is completely controlled by the movement of the vanes in the turbo.

Our Variable Geometry Technology turbo (Variable Nozzle Tech and Variable Vane Tech are also variable geometry, but with fixed vane position in the turbine housing) becomes a small turbinemotor at low rpm when exhaust energy is low, then becomes an ever bigger turbinemotor as exhaust energy increases - no need to waste any energy out some mystical gate, like in those primitive turbinemotors - the vanes are withdrawn axially as engine output increases, freeing up the exhaust path for even greater output - save yer Boost-foolin' fer a Ford, or something..................

There, there, Uffe - that's ok - anyway, confession is good for the soul.........

Science 101 sez:

Vacuum on the control-side of the diaphragm reduces pressure thereupon such that Baro on the work-side of the diaphragm holds the WG closed against exhaust pressure - a 'bleed-orifice' in the vacuum control line will ensure that little Boost is produced

Calibrated spring on the work-side of the diaphragm holds the WG closed against exhaust pressure - Boost pressure on the control-side of the diaphragm aids exhaust pressure in opening the WG - a 'bleed-orifice' in the pressure-control line would ensure that Boost is not 'wasted' too soon

So easy, a cave-man could do it...........

I have been holding this to myself for a couple of months now because I have not been using pump gas for a while to verify MPG and did not want to post it until I could verify it. Anyway when my turbo actuator went south and I was waiting for the new solenoid to be delivered, I noticed that my mpg on that tank was ~33 in town. but like I said I have not repeated it because it does cause a serious drop in power without the turbo spooling up. If someone else wants to try it just unplug the vacuum hose to the turbo and block it with a pencil or something. It will throw a code but wont cause limp mode. It seemed to have about 3/4 power without the turbo spooling and also caused an unusual exhaust tone without the turbo damping the noise.

Author:	maxxgraphix [ Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Turbo Boost fooler
For the Ford 7.3 powerstroke there's DIY $1.00 's (1.00 per hundred min order) worth of resisters mod that makes the turbo boost more. Could this be done on the CRD? Just a little more boost to lean out for better FE? Also a while back I had a chip in my 7.3. With the kit came a small tube that had a air bleed hole in it. They said it kept the turbo on longer. Makes sense since waste gates are vacuum controlled. Thoughts?

Author:	Joe Romas [ Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:
CRD's don't have a waste gate. They are a VGT but they are controled by vacuum

Author:	05infernoCRDL [ Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:
you only need more boost when you see black smoke out your tail pipe

Author:	maxxgraphix [ Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:
Well, I do see black smoke. This is a stock tune. Would a bleeder help? We have an 05, I'm sure it had the F37 update since the TC was replaced at the dealer. Get a vacuum T and a fish tank air valve to control the bleed?

Author:	msilbernagel [ Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:
I think the stock 'smoke' is mostly caused by the EGR... So, you have options. Mark -- maxxgraphix wrote: Well, I do see black smoke. This is a stock tune. Would a bleeder help? We have an 05, I'm sure it had the F37 update since the TC was replaced at the dealer. Get a vacuum T and a fish tank air valve to control the bleed?

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Author:	05infernoCRDL [ Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:
these trucks don't smoke from lack of air when they are stock. the Cummins that you see leaving trails are low on air supply. the little wisps that you see at night under WOT in headlights are not considered "black smoke". if yours is stock and you are blowing that much smoke something might be amiss.

Author:	DarbyWalters [ Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:
Again a bleeder will not help without a wastegate to fool. A bleeder just bleeds off boost pressure on the line that leads to the wastegate and mechanically moves the arm/rod...which we don't have.

Author:	maxxgraphix [ Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:
OK, it's not thick smoke. I can still see something though. I've done the ORM and cleaned the MAP. The waste gate looked vacuum controlled to me. What's that big diaphram with a hose going to it on top of the turbo? I'll look again to make sure. Many turbos use vacuum to close the waste gate. So adding a bleed would keep it boosting longer.

Author:	Sir Sam [ Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:
maxxgraphix wrote: OK, it's not thick smoke. I can still see something though. I've done the ORM and cleaned the MAP. The waste gate looked vacuum controlled to me. What's that big diaphram with a hose going to it on top of the turbo? I'll look again to make sure. Many turbos use vacuum to close the waste gate. So adding a bleed would keep it boosting longer. EXCEPT WE HAVE NO WASTEGATE! Boost is completely controlled by the movement of the vanes in the turbo.

Author:	tjkj2002 [ Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:
Sir Sam wrote: maxxgraphix wrote: OK, it's not thick smoke. I can still see something though. I've done the ORM and cleaned the MAP. The waste gate looked vacuum controlled to me. What's that big diaphram with a hose going to it on top of the turbo? I'll look again to make sure. Many turbos use vacuum to close the waste gate. So adding a bleed would keep it boosting longer. EXCEPT WE HAVE NO WASTEGATE! Boost is completely controlled by the movement of the vanes in the turbo. I guess the 3rd time is not the charm !

Author:	gmctd [ Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 am ]
Post subject:
Our Variable Geometry Technology turbo (Variable Nozzle Tech and Variable Vane Tech are also variable geometry, but with fixed vane position in the turbine housing) becomes a small turbinemotor at low rpm when exhaust energy is low, then becomes an ever bigger turbinemotor as exhaust energy increases - no need to *waste* any energy out some mystical gate, like in those primitive turbinemotors - the vanes are withdrawn axially as engine output increases, freeing up the exhaust path for even greater output - save yer Boost-foolin' fer a Ford, or something..................

Author:	Uffe [ Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:02 am ]
Post subject:
gmctd wrote: Our Variable Geometry Technology turbo (Variable Nozzle Tech and Variable Vane Tech are also variable geometry, but with fixed vane position in the turbine housing) becomes a small turbinemotor at low rpm when exhaust energy is low, then becomes an ever bigger turbinemotor as exhaust energy increases - no need to *waste* any energy out some mystical gate, like in those primitive turbinemotors - the vanes are withdrawn axially as engine output increases, freeing up the exhaust path for even greater output - save yer Boost-foolin' fer a Ford, or something.................. Heey - I have a wastegated turbo on my CRD

Author:	gmctd [ Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:27 am ]
Post subject:
There, there, Uffe - that's ok - anyway, confession is good for the soul......... Science 101 sez: Vacuum on the control-side of the diaphragm reduces pressure thereupon such that Baro on the work-side of the diaphragm holds the WG closed against exhaust pressure - a 'bleed-orifice' in the vacuum control line will ensure that little Boost is produced Calibrated spring on the work-side of the diaphragm holds the WG closed against exhaust pressure - Boost pressure on the control-side of the diaphragm aids exhaust pressure in opening the WG - a 'bleed-orifice' in the pressure-control line would ensure that Boost is not 'wasted' too soon So easy, a cave-man could do it...........

Author:	maxxgraphix [ Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:59 am ]
Post subject:
OK, I got it. It's a vacuum controlled Variable Vane Actuator. I haven't opened the hood on this thing since we bough it. Gold warranty, I didn't want to bother. Even oil changes included. But since diesel is $4.00 /gal and our CDR was only getting 22.5mpg with 5 Star dealer service, I figured I'd better do it myself. I had complained many times stating that the advertised MPG was up to 28mpg and we don't get it. The response was, "It's not broken in yet." So we waited and waited and waited. It went up to 24 and then right back down after the TC update. Thanks to this forum our average is 26mpg and last tank was 28.9. I see no reason why this engine can't achieve 35mpg with the right mods. That's why I'm asking about boost and ECU hacking. I was an ASE master tech back in 94. I got out of the business due to back problems. So, call me old tech. I'm not up to date on anything made late 90's and 2000 on.

Author:	gmctd [ Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:08 am ]
Post subject:
The '05 FSM's and PSM's also show various erronious data, having been printed in '04 - pity the poor Jeeptech, whose turn it is in the CRD-repair barrel........

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Author:	Uffe [ Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:08 am ]
Post subject:
gmctd wrote: There, there, Uffe - that's ok - anyway, confession is good for the soul......... Science 101 sez: Vacuum on the control-side of the diaphragm reduces pressure thereupon such that Baro on the work-side of the diaphragm holds the WG closed against exhaust pressure - a 'bleed-orifice' in the vacuum control line will ensure that little Boost is produced Calibrated spring on the work-side of the diaphragm holds the WG closed against exhaust pressure - Boost pressure on the control-side of the diaphragm aids exhaust pressure in opening the WG - a 'bleed-orifice' in the pressure-control line would ensure that Boost is not 'wasted' too soon So easy, a cave-man could do it........... That vacuum used for waste-gate control is inside the turbo is it not? In my case of a euro pre-05 KJ the externally supplied vacuum to the "turbo" is the EGR valve control vacuum I believe. If all the VGT is controlled by external vacuum, wouldn't that make it less reliable as a mechanical part? Overboosting can be caused just by plugging the vacuum control lines (as I have done to stop the EGR valve from opening). I sure am glad I installed my boost gauge, so if there is anything wrong with the turbo (particularly overboosting or underboosting) I would have a fighting chance to detect it with my gauge

Author:	Goglio704 [ Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:12 am ]
Post subject:
The sad part is that on my 05, the EPA required vacuum hose info on the underhood sticker refers to a wastegate. Easy to get confused when the manufacturer can't get it right.

Author:	nursecosmo [ Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:31 am ]
Post subject:
I have been holding this to myself for a couple of months now because I have not been using pump gas for a while to verify MPG and did not want to post it until I could verify it. Anyway when my turbo actuator went south and I was waiting for the new solenoid to be delivered, I noticed that my mpg on that tank was ~33 in town. but like I said I have not repeated it because it does cause a serious drop in power without the turbo spooling up. If someone else wants to try it just unplug the vacuum hose to the turbo and block it with a pencil or something. It will throw a code but wont cause limp mode. It seemed to have about 3/4 power without the turbo spooling and also caused an unusual exhaust tone without the turbo damping the noise.

Author:	gmctd [ Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:34 am ]
Post subject:
The wastegate is a flapper-valve covering a hole inside the turbine housing, allowing a metered 'leak' around the turbine - WG control is that vacuum-operated cannister mentioned above^ - the vacuum pump is down front inside the engine and pumps steady 26"HG - ECM modulates a solenoid to apply variable vacuum to the WG controller, depending on engine requirement - ECM also modulates another solenoid to apply variable vacuum to the EGR valve - both are probably coordinated to react oppositely, as you have no AFC\TV to assisit EGR under Boost conditions - if you plug the EGR line, you get no EGR - if you plug the WG line, you get no Boost: that's a fail-safe - vacuum on the WG makes Boost, no vac = no Boost You're right about the Boost guage indicating the life of your engine - even better is the EGT guage - even even better is Boost and EGT, combined

Author:	nursecosmo [ Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:26 am ]
Post subject:
nursecosmo wrote: I have been holding this to myself for a couple of months now because I have not been using pump gas for a while to verify MPG and did not want to post it until I could verify it. Anyway when my turbo actuator went south and I was waiting for the new solenoid to be delivered, I noticed that my mpg on that tank was ~33 in town. but like I said I have not repeated it because it does cause a serious drop in power without the turbo spooling up. If someone else wants to try it just unplug the vacuum hose to the turbo and block it with a pencil or something. It will throw a code but wont cause limp mode. It seemed to have about 3/4 power without the turbo spooling and also caused an unusual exhaust tone without the turbo damping the noise. I forgot to add that if you just unplug the vacuum control solenoid it does the same thing.