LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Jeep engineer + diesel engine = moron

All diesels with EPA mandated EGR's and CCV's will have this problem, the switch to ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) will eleminate any clogging from the soot, but the oil in the intercooler will be a problem till the mfg starts installing a filtering and drain system like the MANN PROVENT CCV FILTER.

OH, OK. Well at least it's not just me then. That makes me feel better.

I sort of would like a response like this: "We realize that you have a legitimate concern and we are working toward a solution for this problem." But of course you are right...they'd never admit that even if it were true.

Well you didn't see the actual e-mail that I sent them, so how would you know?

I was just giving a quick rundown of the main idea in this thread...

That's exactly the idea. When you pull off your intercooler hoses, etc. and engine oil runs out, you've got a pretty serious problem. If their engineers missed this, they don't need to be engineering vehicles. So obviously it was something they did on purpose. That's why I asked them why they designed it that way, and what if anything they planned to do about it. And I also asked if my warranty would be voided if I did something about it myself.

The bottom line is, government regulations really don't matter here. The customer laying down $26,000 for the vehicle is what matters. And therefore the vehicle ought to either A.) be designed to go the distance or B.) not be brought to market. Period.

The thought of my engine and turbo charging system being clogged up every single time I turn the key on my new $26,000 4x4 really ticks me off. And I have every right to make my thoughts known to them.

But like I said, alas they will do nothing. So the thousands of CRD owners who care will end up buying ProVent filters, or in my case I may just make one myself to save $150. But that looks like the only solution.

I believe the extra oxygenate in bio is the culprit. The nitrogen is from the atmosphere. Both nitrogen and oxygen are needed for oxides of nitrogen. There is already plenty N2 in the atmosphere.
Diesels have no throttle plate to limit the volume of air the piston can suck in during its intake stroke. Diesels run "lean" with more air than fuel. There will always be some extra oxygen not consumed by the fuel. This oxygen can combine with the N2 to form the oxides. Bio has extra oxygen, there is that much less oxygen needed from the atmosphere for combustion leaving just that much more for NOx formation.
Gasoline powered engine limit the nitrogen (and oxygen) by limiting the air with a throttle plate. Only the amount of gasoline needed to consume all the oxygen in the smaller air charge is injected. There is little to no excess oxygen to combine with the nitrogen.
Diesels can't use this throttle plate effect since the full air charge is needed for compression and heat generation. A throttle plate in a diesel will create an intake vacuum resulting in too little air in the cylinder to ignite the injected fuel.
What diesels need to reduce the oxygen without reducing the air volume, is air that has some O2 depleted by already having been burned. Thus, the dreaded EGR.
Solve one problem, make another...

So what's the worst case scenario here? I've got a 100k warranty on mine, but if this is going to be an issue where it's going to be in the shop every two seconds I'm going to take it in the tail pipe and trade it in.

e.

I took the Jeep to fill it up the other day and I knew the wife was babying it and I did a few max RPM run outs and by the last run threw the gears the smoke in the mirrors was gone. Man that puppy will burn the rear tires.

Well, assuming this is truly just a round of bad EGRs, you're really just looking at having to clean your intercooler about every 80k. If the EGR issue is a design fault (or fact of life for a CCV deisel), DC will have to keep replacing them under warranty until the warranty runs out, they come up w/ a TSB to fix it (a provent-like device), or they find some way to weasel out of replacing them. It's also possible that once ULSD is phased in nationwide it'll alleviate some of the problems and it'll be a non-issue.

I wouldn't trade it in - the benefits far outweigh the costs and this point.

PS: you could always look into running at least part biodiesel if it's available in your area. Burns extremely clean!

As far as biodiesel - would running only B2 make any kind of difference? That's about all I can find out here, and only at least 20 miles from home at that...

Author:	LibertyCRD [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:56 am ]
Post subject:	Jeep engineer + diesel engine = moron
The other diesel engines used in U.S. vehicles such as the Cummins diesel do not have the blowby gasses and oil clogging up intercoolers, intakes, etc. I asked Jeep why the Liberty engine has this problem. Why was it designed this way? What's up with the closed crankcase ventilation setup? Will Jeep extend the warranty to cover damages from this crappy emissions system/closed crankcase ventilation system later down the road? Will installing a ProVent filter to try and remedy this problem void our warranty? Etc... And this is what they told me: "Thank you for your recent email expressing interest in DaimlerChrysler Motors Corporation. We are proud of our accomplishments and the excitement our products are generating. We are successful because we concentrate our resources in areas of new product development, engineering and safety. The information you are seeking is either unavailable from DaimlerChrysler Motors Corporation or considered proprietary. We appreciate your interest. Sincerely, William Senior Staff Representative DaimlerChrysler Customer Assistance Center " Sounds like a bunch of crap to me. So obviously, they are admitting fault in designing a crappy system. And basically they are saying "we are selling Jeeps like hot cakes and don't give a rat's *ss if they last to 100,000 miles or not". What a load of crap. I'm starting to get really aggravated. Looks like a ProVent is in my future now.

Author:	boxhead [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:
In all fairness, what would you expect them to say? We live in such a litigious society, almost anything they say could open/expose them to lawsuits.

Author:	AdamIsAdam [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:
That's the standard reply for anything too technical for them to email back. I've gotten it before as well.

Author:	LibertyCRD [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:
OH, OK. Well at least it's not just me then. That makes me feel better. I sort of would like a response like this: "We realize that you have a legitimate concern and we are working toward a solution for this problem." But of course you are right...they'd never admit that even if it were true.

Author:	oldnavy [ Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:
All diesels with EPA mandated EGR's and CCV's will have this problem, the switch to ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) will eleminate any clogging from the soot, but the oil in the intercooler will be a problem till the mfg starts installing a filtering and drain system like the MANN PROVENT CCV FILTER.

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Jeep engineer + diesel engine = moron http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3155	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Xgecko [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:49 am ]
Post subject:
oldnavy wrote: All diesels with EPA mandated EGR's and CCV's will have this problem, the switch to ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) will eleminate any clogging from the soot, but the oil in the intercooler will be a problem till the mfg starts installing a filtering and drain system like the MANN PROVENT CCV FILTER. To expand a bit, remember that the CRD was designed for Low Sulfer Diesel...the USA is really slow in producing LSD

Author:	oldnavy [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:54 am ]
Post subject:
LibertyCRD wrote: OH, OK. Well at least it's not just me then. That makes me feel better. I sort of would like a response like this: "We realize that you have a legitimate concern and we are working toward a solution for this problem." But of course you are right...they'd never admit that even if it were true. he way the question was presented the question would never have been taken serious and not past the first run on the ladder to engineering & corperate.

Author:	LibertyCRD [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:03 am ]
Post subject:
Well you didn't see the actual e-mail that I sent them, so how would you know? I was just giving a quick rundown of the main idea in this thread...

Author:	oldnavy [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:42 am ]
Post subject:
LibertyCRD wrote: Well you didn't see the actual e-mail that I sent them, so how would you know? I was just giving a quick rundown of the main idea in this thread... Well I believed you told us what you sent and not some bunch of BS short handed, if you wrote a serious letter and not some silly trash that was stated here then say so and I would most likely be on your side of the posting. What you posted here didn't sound as if you understood the difference in EPA requirements of a 3/4 and above diesel trucks, the EPA requirements for our lighter duty Jeep and how these laws have changed in the last few years and how big some changes are that are coming in the near future and why we have the closed system on the Jeep CRD. I'm sure they believe the soot problem will go away when ULSD comes into the market next year. Like you I wonder why they didn't plan better for the CCV oil problem and have something like a Mann ProVent CCV Filtering system on the Jeep. It could have been a simple engineering oversite or the bean counters were cutting cost and cut something that we believe they should not have cut.

Author:	LibertyCRD [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:51 am ]
Post subject:
That's exactly the idea. When you pull off your intercooler hoses, etc. and engine oil runs out, you've got a pretty serious problem. If their engineers missed this, they don't need to be engineering vehicles. So obviously it was something they did on purpose. That's why I asked them why they designed it that way, and what if anything they planned to do about it. And I also asked if my warranty would be voided if I did something about it myself. The bottom line is, government regulations really don't matter here. The customer laying down $26,000 for the vehicle is what matters. And therefore the vehicle ought to either A.) be designed to go the distance or B.) not be brought to market. Period. The thought of my engine and turbo charging system being clogged up every single time I turn the key on my new $26,000 4x4 really ticks me off. And I have every right to make my thoughts known to them. But like I said, alas they will do nothing. So the thousands of CRD owners who care will end up buying ProVent filters, or in my case I may just make one myself to save $150. But that looks like the only solution.

Author:	oldnavy [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:02 am ]
Post subject:
LibertyCRD wrote: That's exactly the idea. When you pull off your intercooler hoses, etc. and engine oil runs out, you've got a pretty serious problem. If their engineers missed this, they don't need to be engineering vehicles. So obviously it was something they did on purpose. That's why I asked them why they designed it that way, and what if anything they planned to do about it. And I also asked if my warranty would be voided if I did something about it myself. The bottom line is, government regulations really don't matter here. The customer laying down $26,000 for the vehicle is what matters. And therefore the vehicle ought to either A.) be designed to go the distance or B.) not be brought to market. Period. The thought of my engine and turbo charging system being clogged up every single time I turn the key on my new $26,000 4x4 really ticks me off. And I have every right to make my thoughts known to them. But like I said, alas they will do nothing. So the thousands of CRD owners who care will end up buying ProVent filters, or in my case I may just make one myself to save $150. But that looks like the only solution. Here's a link to a website that has a CCV filter I designed to replace the OEM CCV on a VW diesel http://www.stancomachine.com/CCV.htm that was mfg at a friends machine shop before he sold out. Hey it worked great too. I'm not sure the shops new owner is still making these for the VW's, but this design could easly be adapted to a CRD. Is there a CRD owner that has a machine shop here???

Author:	grywlfbg [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:	need for EGR
Was cruising around the TDI forums and found an interesting thread. One of the responses mentioned that the CCV and EGR systems we are dealing w/ are related to lowering NOx emissions for diesels. Here's an excerpt: Quote: I believe the extra oxygenate in bio is the culprit. The nitrogen is from the atmosphere. Both nitrogen and oxygen are needed for oxides of nitrogen. There is already plenty N2 in the atmosphere. Diesels have no throttle plate to limit the volume of air the piston can suck in during its intake stroke. Diesels run "lean" with more air than fuel. There will always be some extra oxygen not consumed by the fuel. This oxygen can combine with the N2 to form the oxides. Bio has extra oxygen, there is that much less oxygen needed from the atmosphere for combustion leaving just that much more for NOx formation. Gasoline powered engine limit the nitrogen (and oxygen) by limiting the air with a throttle plate. Only the amount of gasoline needed to consume all the oxygen in the smaller air charge is injected. There is little to no excess oxygen to combine with the nitrogen. Diesels can't use this throttle plate effect since the full air charge is needed for compression and heat generation. A throttle plate in a diesel will create an intake vacuum resulting in too little air in the cylinder to ignite the injected fuel. What diesels need to reduce the oxygen without reducing the air volume, is air that has some O2 depleted by already having been burned. Thus, the dreaded EGR. Solve one problem, make another... Full thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php? ... =0&fpart=1 So at this point I'm accepting the Provent as a cost of doing business w/ my government.

Author:	Ricky5 [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:
So what's the worst case scenario here? I've got a 100k warranty on mine, but if this is going to be an issue where it's going to be in the shop every two seconds I'm going to take it in the tail pipe and trade it in.

Author:	oldnavy [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:
Ricky5 wrote: So what's the worst case scenario here? I've got a 100k warranty on mine, but if this is going to be an issue where it's going to be in the shop every two seconds I'm going to take it in the tail pipe and trade it in. There are several variables involved here that could mean you might not have as much problem as other would. One of the thing early on that was discovered by us TDIer's was if you drove them like you were a an old fart and never got it past 2500 to 3000 rpm's and did a lot of short shifting for fuel ecomony were they folks that had the problem with intake clogging early (maybe at 30,000 miles) on, instead of say 100,000 miles for those who drove it past 3,000 RPM's when shifting on a fairly regular basis just to keep the soot out of the engine. I took the Jeep to fill it up the other day and I knew the wife was babying it and I did a few max RPM run outs and by the last run threw the gears the smoke in the mirrors was gone. Man that puppy will burn the rear tires.

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Author:	grywlfbg [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:	EGRs
Well, assuming this is truly just a round of bad EGRs, you're really just looking at having to clean your intercooler about every 80k. If the EGR issue is a design fault (or fact of life for a CCV deisel), DC will have to keep replacing them under warranty until the warranty runs out, they come up w/ a TSB to fix it (a provent-like device), or they find some way to weasel out of replacing them. It's also possible that once ULSD is phased in nationwide it'll alleviate some of the problems and it'll be a non-issue. I wouldn't trade it in - the benefits far outweigh the costs and this point. PS: you could always look into running at least part biodiesel if it's available in your area. Burns extremely clean!

Author:	Ricky5 [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:
I run B20 every once and awhile. Not all the time though, cause the nearest pump is out of my way. I've got a pump in Boulder and one in Ft Lupton, and I live in the middle. Got to love that! I like my CRD a bit much to trade it in, but if it was going to be a pita I would get rid of it and buy me a Unlimited Rubicon.

Author:	oldnavy [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:
I have been thinking about doing the pull the power plug to the EGR and not worrying about the CEL if I can turn it off and it stay off. Lots of VW diesel owner have done it with no apparent ill effect. Too bad my B100 source dried up, I would be running that and not worrying about the intake manifold and heads clogging up from soot & oil mix. Been scrounging around and have found a old CCV filter like the one shown on the website that I designed for the VW diesel and I am going to see if I can adapt it to the CRD. Probably be a few weeks before I will be able to get around to that part, the wife and I are still trying to make room in the house for daughter & grandson. Darn garage is a mess, wife will have to park in the driveway till we get things cleared up and rearranged.

Author:	retmil46 [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:16 am ]
Post subject:
oldnavy wrote: e. I took the Jeep to fill it up the other day and I knew the wife was babying it and I did a few max RPM run outs and by the last run threw the gears the smoke in the mirrors was gone. Man that puppy will burn the rear tires. (snicker, evil grin) Just what I need, a legitimate reason to go out and let those four Italian squirrels under the hood strut their stuff!

Author:	Guest [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGRs
grywlfbg wrote: Well, assuming this is truly just a round of bad EGRs, you're really just looking at having to clean your intercooler about every 80k. If the EGR issue is a design fault (or fact of life for a CCV deisel), DC will have to keep replacing them under warranty until the warranty runs out, they come up w/ a TSB to fix it (a provent-like device), or they find some way to weasel out of replacing them. It's also possible that once ULSD is phased in nationwide it'll alleviate some of the problems and it'll be a non-issue. I wouldn't trade it in - the benefits far outweigh the costs and this point. PS: you could always look into running at least part biodiesel if it's available in your area. Burns extremely clean! I'm just going to wait and see. I love this jeep and if it means cleaning out the intercooler at 80k-100k then so be it - I'd rather keep the system under the hood stock so that DC has nothing to argue about if something goes wrong. As far as biodiesel - would running only B2 make any kind of difference? That's about all I can find out here, and only at least 20 miles from home at that...

Author:	oldnavy [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: EGRs
alljeep wrote: As far as biodiesel - would running only B2 make any kind of difference? That's about all I can find out here, and only at least 20 miles from home at that... It will make no difference as far as soot going into the engine because it's 98% #2 diesel and that stuff is loaded with sulfur. I drive about 25 miles just to buy the local MFA Oil brand of B2 over local rotgut diesel. The VW's and now the CRD runs so much better with the B2 and the fuel is 49 cetane which is very close to what the engine was designed to run on anyway. B2 has a very high cleaning capability for the Injection Pump and Injectors, not to mention even the keeping the fuel lines clean. The only thing that is really a draw back with diesel and more so with biodiesel is the growth of fungus and such in the fuel tank, some retailers add the biocide when they order fuel or add it to their tank at delivery. Myself I just buy a bottle of the biocide ($12 to $14 depending where you buy) and add a 1/2 oz to every other tank, and at that rate the bottle will last about 2 years maybe more.