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EGT probe and valve Q's
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31670		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  05infernoCRDL [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  EGT probe and valve Q's
working on some future planning here...

i was thinking of drilling the manifold for the EGT probe...
i have heard places to take the manifold off, run the engine at
idle and grease the bits to blow out/ catch the shavings. i have
heard that the cast iron is softer than the turbo vanes and
at idle the shards won't do any damage if they go through.

i was thinking ... if all the valves are closed at a set point,
why not drill then use an air gun to blow the shavings out
through the turbo that is not spinning at all...

if this is not an option how hard is it to unbolt the turbo so
i can put something in there to prevent the metal from entering
the turbo.
Author:  gmctd [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Cast-iron drill shavings are very small curli-ques ~ 0.035-0.060" so cannot damage the turbine blades even in larger quantities than the drilling will produce - idling engine produces plenty enuff exhaust pressure to blow any curli-ques of cast-iron out of the hole and into yer face and nostrils and and ears and your hair, if you got any - use of a safety shield, glasses, and cap is recommended for this procedure, empirically proven to be the best quickest solution

Start the procedure with cold engine, so manifold is not hot - get all yer stuff together, connected up and prepared, B4 starting the engine to maintain prerequisite cool, and it'll be over B4 you know it
Author:  warp2diesel [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Add a High Performance Shop Vac
Put the input of your Shop Vac near the bit when you drill with the Engine at Idle, cuts down on mess clean up.

I used grease on the drill bit and tap when I drilled my intake for the boost gauge.


Steve
Author:  05infernoCRDL [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
thanks for the input.. i know the easy way is to put the probe post
turbo.. but i don't know of anyone on this forum that has put one
pre turbo... and i am hoping to add that data to the forum for
comparison.
Author:  honey_don't [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Looking forward to the details of your install, as is Uffe I'm sure!!
Author:  05infernoCRDL [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
not too sure it will help Uffe too much... i am probably going to install it
on the topside down by the drivers side of the coolant tank.. i think Uffe
has the EGR cooler and the return to intake pipe right there in his way.
Author:  Uffe [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
I am honored to have been mentioned in this thread guys :D

I have gotten a silly thought into my head. I will install the EGT probe after the turbo. I have my pressure gauge installed in the intake. I can find the efficiency of the turbo on garretts site and using a simple model I can take the pressure which the turbo generates at a certain RPM and then compensate for the heat loss in the turbo.

The temperature of the exhaust gas past the turbo is roughly equal to the temperature pre turbo minus the energy used by the turbo to create pressure (how much energy is used to compress the air times the turbos efficiency (which luckily for me is pretty flat above a certain flow)).

If it turns out there is a rule of thumb for the KJ setup (e.g. 100F per 10PSI pressure generated) it would be nice to share with you guys who has got post-turbo EGT probes.
Author:  gmctd [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Empirical rule of thumb is simple - ~300deg across turbo, verified by pre-turbine probe at the exh manifold flange, and post-turbine probe at the exh elbow outlet flange in my system - heavy-loading will be less drop
Author:  warp2diesel [ Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  I have a post turbo probe..
... but I plan to move it into the manifold to get the true reading. What I plan to do with the 1/8" NPT hole is attach an old boost gauge and see what kind of back pressure there is on the stock exhaust system under normal conditions.

Uffe: Your altitude in Denmark is close to sea level, where mine is 720 ft (219.4M). Members in Colorado are mostly between 5000 ft (1524 M) and 10000 ft (3048 M). Load, altitude and ambient temperature will effect EGT. My point is that you will need two pyrometers one pre turbo and one post turbo to determine efficiency of the turbo. The only way to do it with two CRDs would be to have them drive side by side.

Steve
Author:  DocB [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Sub. Me too. Waiting to see where you put it.
Author:  JK05KJCRD [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:32 am ]
Post subject: 
also interested, I have a Ford PSD and i installed the probe in the bottom of the drivers side manifold, drilled and tapped with grease as per Edge instructions, I also vacuumed the hole and placed the head of a pen magnet inside to get any left over fragments - no problems. Now i'd like to install one on my crd, Jimmy
Author:  Sir Sam [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:52 am ]
Post subject: 
JK05KJCRD wrote:
also interested, I have a Ford PSD and i installed the probe in the bottom of the drivers side manifold, drilled and tapped with grease as per Edge instructions, I also vacuumed the hole and placed the head of a pen magnet inside to get any left over fragments - no problems. Now i'd like to install one on my crd, Jimmy


Aluminum fragments?
Author:  Uffe [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a post turbo probe..
warp2diesel wrote:
Uffe: Your altitude in Denmark is close to sea level, where mine is 720 ft (219.4M). Members in Colorado are mostly between 5000 ft (1524 M) and 10000 ft (3048 M). Load, altitude and ambient temperature will effect EGT. My point is that you will need two pyrometers one pre turbo and one post turbo to determine efficiency of the turbo. The only way to do it with two CRDs would be to have them drive side by side.

Steve


You also need a boost gauge and an idea of how much air is sucked into the engine because energy is dependant on pressure and flow.

There's a lot of technical information at garretts website.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... ch101.html

Then take 101, 102 and 103 and tell me how I should do the calculations :D
Author:  honey_don't [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a post turbo probe..
Uffe wrote:
You also need a boost gauge and an idea of how much air is sucked into the engine because energy is dependant on pressure and flow.


Might as well just get a pair of boost/egt combo gauges w/ peak-hold. Have the pressure sensors tapped into the Intake and Exhaust manifolds to read boost and Exhaust Manifold Pressure (EMP). Read EGT pre and post turbo, and use a scangauge to get Intake Air Temp. Then you can put that Bosch textbook to work!
Author:  warp2diesel [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I have a post turbo probe..
Uffe wrote:
warp2diesel wrote:
Uffe: Your altitude in Denmark is close to sea level, where mine is 720 ft (219.4M). Members in Colorado are mostly between 5000 ft (1524 M) and 10000 ft (3048 M). Load, altitude and ambient temperature will effect EGT. My point is that you will need two pyrometers one pre turbo and one post turbo to determine efficiency of the turbo. The only way to do it with two CRDs would be to have them drive side by side.

Steve


You also need a boost gauge and an idea of how much air is sucked into the engine because energy is dependant on pressure and flow.

There's a lot of technical information at garretts website.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... ch101.html

Then take 101, 102 and 103 and tell me how I should do the calculations :D


Uffe: In my line of work, I only do the calculations when the (Civil) Professional Engineer Effs (MEs and EEs screw up less in my line of work) up and since I am not a (Civil) Professional Engineer, I can only report my results to my boss.
But I do spend time explaining the Laws of Physics to the Civils so they can do their certified calculations. I have gone so far as providing a sketch of a hypothetical solution such as a foundation and let them plug in the numbers so they can solve the problem and rubber stamp their drawing.
Do you know why Civil Engineers do not design Jeeps? A: They would break in half after the first bump :!: :P :P :P

Getting back to the Laws of Physics stuff regarding out CDRs. One way to jack the engine to the max would be to get rid of the current log type intake manifold configuration and replace it with some long intake runners that curl back over the top of the engine. This would increase the velocity of the air flow into the cylinders at medium to high speeds and pack more air into the cylinders from the ram effect; plus it would create a greater swirl in the cylinders, both would allow more fuel to be burned resulting in more power out put.
I did this on my '91 Jetta Turbo Diesel 1.9L IDI with a 2 1/4" exhaust. The For Sale, '71 Type II has a Turbo Diesel Inter Cooled 1.6L IDI with 2 1/4" exhaust, both come alive at higher RPMs.
On our CRDs the intake and valve cover are one and this would be a total pain. Also the hood line would not work out any more and I don't have the time for this massive of a project.
If and when some one else comes up with a bolt on version of this, it will be on my mod list as long as it has been designed by a Gear Head, ME or a EE who likes to get his or her hands dirty and mod.

Just some crazy thoughts,

Steve
Author:  JK05KJCRD [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sir Sam wrote:
JK05KJCRD wrote:
also interested, I have a Ford PSD and i installed the probe in the bottom of the drivers side manifold, drilled and tapped with grease as per Edge instructions, I also vacuumed the hole and placed the head of a pen magnet inside to get any left over fragments - no problems. Now i'd like to install one on my crd, Jimmy


Aluminum fragments?


The exhaust manifolds are cast iron on the PSD. I'm new to this engine - Is the ex. manifold on the crd aluminum? :?
Author:  CATCRD [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
JK05KJCRD wrote:
Sir Sam wrote:
JK05KJCRD wrote:
also interested, I have a Ford PSD and i installed the probe in the bottom of the drivers side manifold, drilled and tapped with grease as per Edge instructions, I also vacuumed the hole and placed the head of a pen magnet inside to get any left over fragments - no problems. Now i'd like to install one on my crd, Jimmy


Aluminum fragments?


The exhaust manifolds are cast iron on the PSD. I'm new to this engine - Is the ex. manifold on the crd aluminum? :?


No, people are mixing up talking about tapping aluminum intake manifolds and cast iron exhaust manifolds in the same thread.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Aluminum melting point
Aluminum melts at 1221f, that is why cast iron is used for the exhaust manifold instead of Aluminum.

Packing the flutes of the drill or tap with grease to retain the chips is an OLD MACHINIST'S TRICK :!: :!: :!:

Packing the flutes of the drill or tap with grease to retain the chips works with any metal used in automotive applications :!: :!: :!:

I hope this clears things up.

Steve
Author:  JK05KJCRD [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
CATCRD wrote:
JK05KJCRD wrote:
Sir Sam wrote:
JK05KJCRD wrote:
also interested, I have a Ford PSD and i installed the probe in the bottom of the drivers side manifold, drilled and tapped with grease as per Edge instructions, I also vacuumed the hole and placed the head of a pen magnet inside to get any left over fragments - no problems. Now i'd like to install one on my crd, Jimmy


Aluminum fragments?


The exhaust manifolds are cast iron on the PSD. I'm new to this engine - Is the ex. manifold on the crd aluminum? :?


No, people are mixing up talking about tapping aluminum intake manifolds and cast iron exhaust manifolds in the same thread.


with all due respect, thats what i was thinking, thanks
Author:  Sir Sam [ Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
JK05KJCRD wrote:
CATCRD wrote:
JK05KJCRD wrote:
Sir Sam wrote:
JK05KJCRD wrote:
also interested, I have a Ford PSD and i installed the probe in the bottom of the drivers side manifold, drilled and tapped with grease as per Edge instructions, I also vacuumed the hole and placed the head of a pen magnet inside to get any left over fragments - no problems. Now i'd like to install one on my crd, Jimmy


Aluminum fragments?


The exhaust manifolds are cast iron on the PSD. I'm new to this engine - Is the ex. manifold on the crd aluminum? :?


No, people are mixing up talking about tapping aluminum intake manifolds and cast iron exhaust manifolds in the same thread.


with all due respect, thats what i was thinking, thanks


I did not realize you were talking about a Ford when you were talking about using a magnet on the drivers side manifold.
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