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 Post subject: Diesel article "Diesels [still] equal savings"
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:52 pm 
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Restating what we've been saying all along...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20080527/bs_ ... c51dMDW7oF

Diesels [Still] Equal Savings By Jim Henry
Tue May 27, 11:33 AM ET



With the price of diesel fuel pushing $5 a gallon, many Americans might not think this is the best time to buy a diesel car or sport-utility vehicle. But they'd be mistaken.


The fact of the matter is that even though the price of a gallon of diesel has climbed more than 20% in the past 12 months, diesel cars still offer better gas mileage -- and savings -- than regular cars. That's because diesel engines are much more efficient than gas engines, delivering up to 25% to 30% more miles per gallon.

That's good news for German import brands like Audi (NSUG.), BMW (BMWG.), Mercedes-Benz (NYSE:DAI - News), and Volkswagen (VOWG.), who are launching a wave of new clean-diesel cars in the U.S. starting this fall and into 2009 and beyond. Domestic and Asian manufacturers also have plans to offer more diesels in the U.S. market.

New Diesel-Powered Jetta on the Way

But the timing of these new diesels isn't very auspicious. The sharp rise in diesel fuel has cut deeply into the diesel cost advantage in miles per gallon. There is real concern that unless refineries start producing more diesel, the prices will escalate beyond the point that a diesel can offer any cost benefit.

For example, Volkswagen plans to offer a diesel-powered Jetta starting in August that gets 41 mpg on the highway, according to an Environmental Protection Agency estimate (which VW calls conservative), vs. 29 mpg for the gasoline-powered model. That represents an estimated annual fuel-cost savings of about $308, based on 15,000 miles a year, despite higher diesel-fuel prices. But that same car a year ago would have offered 87% more in annual cost savings, or around $578.

According to a recent American Automobile Assn. report, the national average price for diesel was $4.52 per gallon, an increase of 55% from a year ago. In the same period, premium and regular gasoline each increased about 19%, to $4.18 and $3.79, respectively.

A Whole New Equation

That increase has already eaten up the advantage of older models such as the diesel-powered Jeep Grand Cherokee. It gets only 23 mpg on the highway, according to the EPA, vs. 20 mpg for the gasoline-powered Grand Cherokee.

A year ago, when diesel fuel was cheaper than regular gas, the diesel model would have saved almost an average $500 a year in fuel costs, based on 15,000 miles a year, at the EPA highway mileage estimate. Today, because diesel fuel is so much more expensive and because the mpg advantage for diesel Jeep Grand Cherokee is only about 15%, the diesel model would actually cost about $100 a year more to operate than the gasoline model.

Not only that, would-be diesel buyers should be aware that Jeep and its former partner, Mercedes-Benz, charge about $1,000 more for most diesel models than the gasoline equivalent. That means it may take a couple of years' worth of fuel-cost savings for the diesel just to break even with the gasoline model, before the diesel car starts saving money.

Clean, Quiet, Powerful

It takes about two years' worth of fuel-cost savings in the diesel Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec, for instance, to pay off the $1,000 premium, after which it starts to save about $500 a year in fuel.

Long-term, several factors have converged to make diesel more attractive in the U.S. Unlike the noisy, smelly, smoky, and underpowered diesels many American drivers remember from the early- to mid-1980s, today's diesels are quiet and powerful. Diesels account for more than half of new-car sales in several European markets where the price of a gallon of gas and of diesel cost approximately the same.

In the U.S., the federal government mandated cleaner, low-sulfur diesel fuel starting in 2006. Sulfur was a main ingredient in smelly diesel exhaust. The last hurdle to be jumped was that until recently, even the new and improved diesels couldn't pass tougher emissions standards in California, New York, and six other states that have adopted California-style regulations.

Only 5% Market Share in the U.S.

Despite the regulations, Mercedes-Benz offered "42-state" diesels, but didn't sell very many, since New York and California are among its biggest U.S. markets.

In the mid-1980s, diesels accounted for more than half of U.S. sales for Mercedes-Benz, before gas got cheaper and emissions rules got tougher. Through April, 2008, diesels accounted for only about 5% of U.S. sales year to date. That's about 9% of sales in the states where diesels can be sold. The total includes one 50-state diesel model, the Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec, which was introduced in late 2007.

Most other rivals, like BMW, opted to wait until emissions-control technology improved to the point where it could offer diesels in all 50 states. That point is now. But even though they are finally here, as long as diesel fuel continues to climb, many buyers may instead opt for even thriftier hybrids.

Click here to see 10 diesels that will save you money at the pump -- for now.


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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:00 pm 
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To bad that is mostly false since the deisel option is always a more money over gas,on some vehicles it can be up to $5000+ or more over the gas version,that's alot of gas to buy at a cheaper price even if using a little bit more then the oil burners.For me that's about 4-5 years worth of gas before we even get even,maybe more since the all diesels require more maintance which costs more then the gas versions.

It may seem like you are saving money but in reality when all is added up you are not saving anything(actually spending more in most cases) over a gas version that get's a little less mpg's.


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 Post subject: My CRD out torques your Gasser
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 9:33 pm 
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I love my torque! Plus my repair costs are much less than replacing all those batteries. $5K in a Prius for reference.

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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 11:27 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
For me that's about 4-5 years worth of gas before we even get even,maybe more since the all diesels require more maintance which costs more then the gas versions.


TJ, out of curiosity, other than the inherent problems that Chrysler put into the KJ CRD fuel system and torque converter, I don't know of any work that's been required other than fluid changes, which are the same or more frequent on the gasser...) What additional maintenance are you speaking of?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 11:38 pm 
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dgeist wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
For me that's about 4-5 years worth of gas before we even get even,maybe more since the all diesels require more maintance which costs more then the gas versions.


TJ, out of curiosity, other than the inherent problems that Chrysler put into the KJ CRD fuel system and torque converter, I don't know of any work that's been required other than fluid changes, which are the same or more frequent on the gasser...) What additional maintenance are you speaking of?
Fuel filters,turbo hoses,all your mods to make it run right(lift pump,cat filters,ORM,and all those),most states now require diesel emissions where gassers do not(CO one of them),fuel additives for crappy fuel,fix the water logged OEM air filters,higher priced oil(and more of it) and filters,and the list goes on and on.Then of course you got the tranny problems which you already stated,that's over $3000+ added just for owning a diesel.

I'm not agaist diesels but they are not the answer by any means and should be left to those you really use a diesel for what they are good for,towing heavy loads and construction equiptment.


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:26 am 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
dgeist wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
For me that's about 4-5 years worth of gas before we even get even,maybe more since the all diesels require more maintance which costs more then the gas versions.


TJ, out of curiosity, other than the inherent problems that Chrysler put into the KJ CRD fuel system and torque converter, I don't know of any work that's been required other than fluid changes, which are the same or more frequent on the gasser...) What additional maintenance are you speaking of?
Fuel filters,turbo hoses,all your mods to make it run right(lift pump,cat filters,ORM,and all those),most states now require diesel emissions where gassers do not(CO one of them),fuel additives for crappy fuel,fix the water logged OEM air filters,higher priced oil(and more of it) and filters,and the list goes on and on.Then of course you got the tranny problems which you already stated,that's over $3000+ added just for owning a diesel.

I'm not agaist diesels but they are not the answer by any means and should be left to those you really use a diesel for what they are good for,towing heavy loads and construction equiptment.


Only the denver metro area requires diesel testing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 12:59 am 
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what about the long term? i know guys around here with 500K+ on their diesels. won't see that in many gassers. also, if you buy used, the savings is significant, =less time to break even.
i hate "mine is better" posts.
its like saying why buy a liberty when you could buy an older jeep with a solid front axle and with a real frame in order to keep from spending absurd amounts of time and money on unnecessary fab work, just to put bigger than 31" tires and keep from blowing the front diff. Instead, you could spend about 10K on a 5K jeep and have a crawler that could drive over a libby.
I mean that would be offensive to those who are fabbing their libbys into off-road machines. So you won't see me state that.

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85 F250 6.9 Diesel 250,000 miles
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81 Mercedes 240D 285,000 miles
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:33 am 
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Does nobody care about resale value of a diesel against a gasser???

In Denmark at least diesel cars keep their value better, which means even "better" economy than an equivalent gasser. What you pay extra at the stealership when it's brand new you can reclaim it all over a gasser because the gassers depriciate incredibly fast here.

Just my $0.02

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:36 am 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
dgeist wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
For me that's about 4-5 years worth of gas before we even get even,maybe more since the all diesels require more maintance which costs more then the gas versions.


TJ, out of curiosity, other than the inherent problems that Chrysler put into the KJ CRD fuel system and torque converter, I don't know of any work that's been required other than fluid changes, which are the same or more frequent on the gasser...) What additional maintenance are you speaking of?
Fuel filters,turbo hoses,all your mods to make it run right(lift pump,cat filters,ORM,and all those),most states now require diesel emissions where gassers do not(CO one of them),fuel additives for crappy fuel,fix the water logged OEM air filters,higher priced oil(and more of it) and filters,and the list goes on and on.Then of course you got the tranny problems which you already stated,that's over $3000+ added just for owning a diesel.

I'm not agaist diesels but they are not the answer by any means and should be left to those you really use a diesel for what they are good for,towing heavy loads and construction equiptment.


Fourtunatly for us CRD owners most of the problems that you mention are imaginary. Fuel filters also should be changed on gassers, the CAT filter does not contribute to a better running vehicle and is optional, only a handfull of owners have had their turbo hoses split (fewer than the 3.7L gassers that have valve spring or oiling problems), my lift pump was ~$40, ORM is free, I'm not aware of any state which does emissions testing exclusivly on diesels, the waterlogged air filter is an imaginary problem (incidently it is the same filter as the gasser with the intake in a different location), the oil costs more but the change interval is greatly extended resulting in a net savings, far fewer than 1% of owners have had transmission problems approximatly the same number as gasser owners. Personaly except for a solenoid which I have had to replace, the only performance upgrade which I have "had" to do was the lift pump and that was not because of an air leak or shuddering but because I want my IP to live past 500k. Even if I had been buying all of my fuel instead of making most of it I still would have come out ahead economicaly several times over, not to mention the diesel envy my CRD inspires. On the trail the lowend torque blows all the gassers away.
To sum up, diesels are the answer to the economy question and practical for far more than just towing and construction.

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 Post subject: In Illinois light duty diesels were exempt from testing
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:26 am 
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Here in Illinois only the Over The Road Trucks in the areas like the Chicago area had to be tested. Later on they shut down even the check stations for the gassers and the State of Illinois Government put Faith in the Holy Check Engine Light. So if you ever get pulled over in Illinois by a Cop, turn off your engine if you have done the ORM with out the SEGR box.
Now if the Cops would target the pickups with expired plates from Mexico across the country (including California), the pollution level would be much better.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:16 pm 
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Ouch ... i have only a few mods on my CRD ... none of which are diesel related ...

as far as diesel costs .. I've replaced one fuel filter ... fairly easy to do ... oil changes might seem more costly, but I use synth on all my vehicles .. gassers and diesel so the cost diff there is nothing.

matter of fact .. when I bought this puppy new, the engine option was only 500$ ( and I got the liberty discount even though it was only meant for gassers)

so far with 40K plus on it I feel good about my purchase .. as long as the price of diesel is under 140% of rug ... I'll feel ok

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:59 pm 
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Sir Sam wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
dgeist wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
For me that's about 4-5 years worth of gas before we even get even,maybe more since the all diesels require more maintance which costs more then the gas versions.


TJ, out of curiosity, other than the inherent problems that Chrysler put into the KJ CRD fuel system and torque converter, I don't know of any work that's been required other than fluid changes, which are the same or more frequent on the gasser...) What additional maintenance are you speaking of?
Fuel filters,turbo hoses,all your mods to make it run right(lift pump,cat filters,ORM,and all those),most states now require diesel emissions where gassers do not(CO one of them),fuel additives for crappy fuel,fix the water logged OEM air filters,higher priced oil(and more of it) and filters,and the list goes on and on.Then of course you got the tranny problems which you already stated,that's over $3000+ added just for owning a diesel.

I'm not agaist diesels but they are not the answer by any means and should be left to those you really use a diesel for what they are good for,towing heavy loads and construction equiptment.


Only the denver metro area requires diesel testing.
And then only when you didn't drive past a RapidScreen van. Point is well taken though, synthetic oil, lots of it, adds to maintenance. And the emissions test is 3x the cost.

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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:13 am 
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My CRD has been perfect and I have not done any mods (the ones listed). The oil change costs the same as my previous two cars (I always used sythetic). I paid $22K for my 06 in 07 a new 08 KK is $21,500.

KBB Used Retail Value in Ft Lauderdale
2006 KJ CRD 30K miles: $17,500
2007 KJ 3.7 15K miles: $17,600
2006 KJ 3.7 30K miles: $14,900

KBB Trade In value
2006 KJ CRD 30K miles: $11,225
2007 KJ 3.7 15K miles: $11,600
2006 KJ 3.7 30K miles: $9,225


The CRD maintains 2% better value (between retail and trade in).

Fuel economy:
3.7 Avg combined 20 mpg
CRD AVG combined 23.5 mpg
Fuel Efficiency 17.5% better with CRD

As of 5/27 Avg price gasoline: $3.94
Diesel: $4.77
Current average diesel price is 21% greater

Diesel prices have not always tracked vs gasoline the way they have now, but if they did based on todays average and 30K miles:
$5910 gas
$6089 diesel
You would have spent a 3% premium to run diesel over the 30K miles.

The 3% fuel premuim costs $179

It's hard to calculate what 2% greater residual value is worth, but I am sure that it's worth more than $179.
Like the fuel prices, this trends differently over time.

I still think the CRD was a better value then and a used one is definitely a better value now. Performance is better especially if you have bigger tires, stock gears, lots of heavy metal pieces added and live in mountainous areas.

As far as the CRD being any less reliable, I am not so sure. It seems to me that 20% of the peeps who post here do 80% of the complaining. I have not seen the need for a lift pump at 10PM or that module thingy that shuts off the other doo hicky. My under-hood is completely stock and I have driven my Jeep 46K miles in 2007 all over The Rockies. I have done some serious wheeling during that time and my Jeep was a rental before I owned it so you know it was thrashed.

Besides, I heard that the CV's on the gassers are weak and they break out on the trails. :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 4:59 am 
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JL I think that your numbers are skewed. I have yet to talk to anyone who gets 20mpg hwy out of their 3.7L let alone a combined mpg of 20. My brother gets an average of 17 with mostly 55mpg highways where he lives. Here are the EPA numbers
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
The spread is really more heavily weighted in favor of the CRD and even with the current negative price gap between D2 and RUG we are still comming out ahead at the pump.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:48 pm 
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I'll bet if you follow the maintenaince scheduale in your manual to the letter like most of the CRD guys are it'll cost just as much. I've not seen the one for the 3.7 liberty, but i have seen the one for the 4.0 grand cherokee and it's just as intensive as the CRD liberty.


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 Post subject: CRD mileage on mine better than that.....
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 10:19 pm 
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...here is why.
1) Did the ORM and picked up 2MPG.
2) Inflated the tires to 40PSI, and got some more.
3) Corrected for odometer error that shows 10% less than true mileage. This was calculated by checking against, Garmin GPS, following the same route as a car with a Certified Speedometer/Odometer, recreated route taken on Micro Soft Streets and Trips. This trip yielded 28 MPG in the Winter. Others have reported the same error with stock tires.

I live in the Western Chicago Suburbs and drive from home to Midway and O'Hare airports to fly to my work assignments. On this commute that includes construction crawls on the Tollways and city traffic, I get 24-26 MPG, Winter - Spring driving.

I drive with the flow of traffic around town and on the tollway (60-70) which is faster than the posted limit but do not try to smoke the tires when I take off or drive like a video game.
Summer driving should increase my mileage some more.
I plan to add a fuel cooler on my return line.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:58 am 
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rpapkey wrote:
I'll bet if you follow the maintenaince scheduale in your manual to the letter like most of the CRD guys are it'll cost just as much. I've not seen the one for the 3.7 liberty, but i have seen the one for the 4.0 grand cherokee and it's just as intensive as the CRD liberty.


Everything is the same as the gasser except for the oil change interval which is twice as long. and the fuel filter replacement interval which is at 25k

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:42 am 
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At this point, we are preaching to the choir... Funny. Excellent arguments guys. It is always good to back it up with facts.

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2005 CRD 75,000 miles
Various mods, I just fix it till it breaks.
The rest of the fleet:
85 F250 6.9 Diesel 250,000 miles
82 Mercedes 240D 330,000 miles
81 Mercedes 240D 285,000 miles
My kids think gas is only for lawn equipment!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:23 am 
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jdorris wrote:
At this point, we are preaching to the choir... Funny. Excellent arguments guys. It is always good to back it up with facts.


It just gives us a warm fuzzy feeling to keep repeating how great our rides are, plus It is allways entertaining to hear the guys with diesel envy trying to convince themselves that they don't really want "one of those smelly masculine trucks".

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