LOST JEEPS :: View topic - New bio-diesel study released

I'm not drinking the kool-aid.

The bio-diesel kool-aid. Granted it is a bio-d magazine so they can't bash it too much. The only positive in that article is the good oil samples.

With the oil studies starting to show biodiesel improves engine performance

Quote:

With the oil studies starting to show biodiesel improves engine performance

I came to the opposite conclusion. 35% more maintenance with specific mention of injector replacement and less mpg. They ruled out bad bio-d as a factor. The test took place in St. Louis so I don't buy the cold weather excuse either.

You cannot come to a conclusion based on speculation

Quote:

You cannot come to a conclusion based on speculation

I didn't speculate. Read the article. Your '83 diesel is not comparable to a commmon rail fuel system. You could run Crisco and not harm it. Who's speculating?? How's the kool-aid??

Fuel filters and fuel injectors needed to be replaced more frequently on the B20 buses. Poor fuel quality was ruled out as a factor. However, because maintenance workers didn’t retain clogged parts as requested, researchers were unable to further determine a cause. It was speculated that an unusually cold spring could have been a factor.

I didn't mean this to be an anti-bio-diesel topic. It was a real world test with proven good bio-d. I just found it suprising that they would find a 35% increase in maintenance not significant.

onthehunt wrote:

I'm not drinking the kool-aid.

To which "kool-aid" are you referring?

I've actually considered making biodiesel myself, but I'm a little concerned with the fact that I wouldn't be able to get all of the caustic out. A little bit of that stuff and potentially go a long way in damaging parts. If I was to actually make it, I'd think I'd actually like to distill it to ensure that it would be caustic free...would be very time consuming though

Author:	onthehunt [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:32 am ]
Post subject:	New bio-diesel study released
http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articl ... le_id=2677 "Overall engine and fuel system maintenance was 35 percent higher for the B20 group but, according to the group’s final report, bus-to-bus variability in maintenance indicates that percentage is not significant." Yeah, ok.

Author:	Diggerfreek [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:43 am ]
Post subject:
yeah, that 35 percent probably is from filter... the real test is "Lube oil samples that were collected throughout the year showed that B20 caused no harm and, in some cases, actually resulted in less soot and wear on metals than the ULSD samples."

Author:	onthehunt [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:11 am ]
Post subject:
I'm not drinking the kool-aid.

Author:	CHessMaster [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:12 am ]
Post subject:
Also found this article: http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articl ... le_id=2627

Author:	UFO [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:34 am ]
Post subject:
onthehunt wrote: I'm not drinking the kool-aid. To which "kool-aid" are you referring?

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Author:	onthehunt [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:
The bio-diesel kool-aid. Granted it is a bio-d magazine so they can't bash it too much. The only positive in that article is the good oil samples.

Author:	UFO [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:
onthehunt wrote: The bio-diesel kool-aid. Granted it is a bio-d magazine so they can't bash it too much. The only positive in that article is the good oil samples. What do you mean? Filter replacement is expected when changing to biodiesel, and colder weather can also be a factor. With the oil studies starting to show biodiesel improves engine performance, I may start changing my oil at the recommended intervals, rather than every 5k now. Please don't keep the kool-aid a secret, I want to know what you mean by that.

Author:	JL Rockies [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:58 pm ]
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When I lived out in The Rockies, I would buy bio whenever I pull into a station that sold it. CO seemed to have the most along the highways. In FL there is only one station 45 min away in Hialeah. Outside of the long drive, not having a passport keeps me from going.

Author:	onthehunt [ Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: With the oil studies starting to show biodiesel improves engine performance I came to the opposite conclusion. 35% more maintenance with specific mention of injector replacement and less mpg. They ruled out bad bio-d as a factor. The test took place in St. Louis so I don't buy the cold weather excuse either.

Author:	UFO [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:
onthehunt wrote: Quote: With the oil studies starting to show biodiesel improves engine performance I came to the opposite conclusion. 35% more maintenance with specific mention of injector replacement and less mpg. They ruled out bad bio-d as a factor. The test took place in St. Louis so I don't buy the cold weather excuse either. You cannot come to a conclusion based on speculation. I haven't heard of anyone who has had to replace injectors due to using biodiesel. I've put 50k on my Mercedes burning B100, and I started with a set of used/cleaned/balanced injectors. They are still working fine. I've replaced two fuel filters from cold weather, mostly due to my early inability to make well-converted fuel. My CRD has gone through 4 full tanks of B100 this summer, and it gets 26 mpg mixed highway/city driving. No issues. Tell me about the kool-aid.

Author:	kccrd [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:19 pm ]
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I have gone through a least 15 tankfuls of B99 since late april and have had no problems my fuel filter is at 8or 9 thousand miles and no problems to report. Just a bad alternator pulley in the last week.

Author:	onthehunt [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: You cannot come to a conclusion based on speculation I didn't speculate. Read the article. Your '83 diesel is not comparable to a commmon rail fuel system. You could run Crisco and not harm it. Who's speculating?? How's the kool-aid??

Author:	kdlewis1975 [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:
I came to the opposite conclusion. 35% more maintenance with specific mention of injector replacement and less mpg. ...a little less mpg should be expected since biodiesel is slightly less energy density than dino-diesel. Because biodiesel is an ester, it basically has two oxygens in place of what would otherwise be carbons. One could probably expect it to get a little less soot since it should burn a little cleaner. I've actually considered making biodiesel myself, but I'm a little concerned with the fact that I wouldn't be able to get all of the caustic out. A little bit of that stuff and potentially go a long way in damaging parts. If I was to actually make it, I'd think I'd actually like to distill it to ensure that it would be caustic free...would be very time consuming though.

Author:	onthehunt [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:
I didn't mean this to be an anti-bio-diesel topic. It was a real world test with proven good bio-d. I just found it suprising that they would find a 35% increase in maintenance not significant.

Author:	fastRob [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Depends, but overall, Not Good
UFO wrote: onthehunt wrote: I'm not drinking the kool-aid. To which "kool-aid" are you referring? Tom Wolfe wrote the "Electric Kool Aid Acid Test" in the 60's about Ken Kesey. Rev. Jim Jones killed 900 hundred in Guyana with Kool Aid and cyanide. I would say in general, easy on the kool aid fella.

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Author:	Diggerfreek [ Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:52 pm ]
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ok next question if we want to get technical is what micron did the fuel filter filter down to and was there a w/f filter

Author:	UFO [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:01 am ]
Post subject:
duplicate...

Author:	UFO [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:06 am ]
Post subject:
onthehunt wrote: Quote: You cannot come to a conclusion based on speculation I didn't speculate. Read the article. Your '83 diesel is not comparable to a commmon rail fuel system. You could run Crisco and not harm it. Who's speculating?? How's the kool-aid?? Yes you did come to a conclusion, based on the speculation as to the cause of the "extra maintenance". Here is your source article: Quote: Fuel filters and fuel injectors needed to be replaced more frequently on the B20 buses. Poor fuel quality was ruled out as a factor. However, because maintenance workers didn’t retain clogged parts as requested, researchers were unable to further determine a cause. It was speculated that an unusually cold spring could have been a factor. Any conclusions, including yours, regarding why they needed to replace injectors or filters is based on speculation, and not valid. They also do not say why or how poor fuel quality was ruled out, so that cannot be ruled out either. My vehicles and experience are offered as a counter to your speculation and apparent ignorance of biodiesel. You still have not clarified what you mean by kool-aid. If there is a real issue with biodiesel, you have not stated what you think it is.

Author:	UFO [ Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:12 am ]
Post subject:
onthehunt wrote: I didn't mean this to be an anti-bio-diesel topic. It was a real world test with proven good bio-d. I just found it suprising that they would find a 35% increase in maintenance not significant. With grungy old buses you can't just switch fuels and not expect an initial spike in maintenance. You will plug filters. It is entirely unclear why they claim the 35% figure, as nothing is substantiated. No data taken, nothing documented, claims unsubstantiated. And you can come to a conclusion based on this story. Makes sense. You turned this into an anti-biodiesel topic merely by holding this story as some sort of proof of something.

Author:	KeighJeigh [ Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:22 am ]
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That is not a new study. If you want a BIG study then study Europe where they have hundreds of millions of miles driven with BD. It's only an issue with a few people in the U.S. because it is new to us and because very few of us drive diesel cars. Koolaid? It's an ironic comparison because dino diesel is highly toxic while BD is not. Also consider this: In Jonestown the crowd all did the same thing....except for a few who took a chance and escaped. Dino diesel is the Koolaid: Everyone is drinking it even as it kills us. If you want to leave the crowd and escape the compound then you'll have to take a calculated risk and do something different. The biggest problem BD faced in it's early days was lack of standards and enforcement of standards. That has quickly changed as it became more popular and is no longer much of an issue if: 1) you buy from a reputable company or 2) you brew your own and test it. There are more than a few comments I've read from people who have had regular diesel ruin their injector pumps due to poor quality dino-diesel fuel or inadequate filters. It's all about standards and quality and if you are pumping any fuel from a huge station with giant tanks in the ground the quality can vary more than you might think. You can even buy field test kits now that examine diesel fuel quality at the pump and it is no secret that many stations are pumping out of spec dino fuel due to contamination and other factors. It's not the nature of BD, its the quality of the fuel - any fuel - that matters. BD does have better lubricity and higher cetane and tends to quiet your engine down a bit. I consider it a superior fuel - and have been using it in my F350 since 2002 and both our CRDs since we bought them. I'm also building reactor that will allow me to brew my own - which will allow me to have even better control and monitoring of the quality of the fuel going into my rigs while saving me 3 bucks a gallon. Quote: I've actually considered making biodiesel myself, but I'm a little concerned with the fact that I wouldn't be able to get all of the caustic out. A little bit of that stuff and potentially go a long way in damaging parts. If I was to actually make it, I'd think I'd actually like to distill it to ensure that it would be caustic free...would be very time consuming though . I would encourage you to join some online forums with people who actually make the stuff and use it successfully such as this: http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=447609751 They will tell you over and over that the most important part of the process is testing, testing, testing. Something, by the way, you should probably do to your store bought diesel as well since it is not always up to snuff.