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Help!!!...Engine rumbling and then stalling...
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36103		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  jmoomaw [ Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Help!!!...Engine rumbling and then stalling...
I posted this in two places...not sure where to get the best answer quickly....this does not look good!!!..

The last two days when starting the engine (once in the afternoon after it sat for 4 hours in the shade (50 degrees), and then this morning the same thing happened.

Jeep Liberty CRD 2005: The engine starts normal and then 20-30 seconds later it starts to rumble, shake and then stop. It doesn't happen again for the day. This morning I stopped the engine in the middle of it and it happened again after I started it. It stalled out. Once I started it, it didn't happen again.

Engine Codes keep coming back: PO 107 MAP Sensor Low Voltage, PO299 Turbo Underboost, PO401: EGR Value restricted.
I changed the air filter (New K&N), the dealer diagnosed the EGR Valve as needing replacement, I soaked and clean a huge amount of black tar off the MAP Sensor.

Could this be a timing belt issue?

I bought my Liberty off E-Bay and it doesn't look like I will get any help on this. I have had the car for two weeks now. What I thought was an E-Bay purchase turned out to be between him and I when I thought as the high bidder(the reserve not met), it was my choice to meet his price. The E-Bay insurance may not help. Before I get legal or real pushy, I would like to get a handle on what this could be.

Any help would be appreciated.

Jim
Author:  nursecosmo [ Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
How many miles on the engine? Timing belt problems are not intermittent. The problem may be a burst CAC hose.
Author:  jmoomaw [ Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  I will check the CAC Hose
The Jeep has 74,110 miles on her.....
Thanks for the quick response.

Jim
Author:  jmoomaw [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  CAC Hoses
The shop manual says the turbo compresses the inlet air and forces it throught the CAC. It utilizes exhaust gas to compress? I assume that is why the 299 and 401 codes are related? This raises several questions.

Disabling the EGR: does that mean the egr doesn't control the airflow to the turbo?

If the Turbo has a stuck valve (underflow) would the engine start?

While the value is stuck would it build up back pressure?

I just had the EGR valve replaced. If I remove the splash guard, will I be able to see if any hoses are loose or damaged?

I will take a few hours tomorrow to look over the system. Hope to get input by them. I have a shop manual, but if anyone has photos that show what they are describing, this newbie would be better off.

Thanks,
Jim

PS> I installed the HHO system in the vehicle on Wednesday of this week. The Jeep immediately ran better. The HHO is added after the MAF sensor. I will find out how long it takes for the HHO to actually reach the air intake after the key is switched on. The generator is in the rear compartment. Today, I will disconnect the generator to see if it happens without it turned on.
Author:  dgeist [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CAC Hoses
Hi, Jim. Responses inline:

jmoomaw wrote:
The shop manual says the turbo compresses the inlet air and forces it throught the CAC. It utilizes exhaust gas to compress? I assume that is why the 299 and 401 codes are related?

Chances are the MAP voltage and underboost are related. Not necessarily the EGR, but that could be sticking open and causing some issues.

jmoomaw wrote:
Disabling the EGR: does that mean the egr doesn't control the airflow to the turbo?

EGR only controls gasflow from the exhaust to the intake. The the turbo impeller is always in the exhaust path the vanes on the impeller vary based on driving conditions providing a pumping action on the intake side of more or less combustion air. All the EGR will do in this case is wreck havoc on the amount of air that the computer thinks is getting into the engine and recirculate exhaust into the intake when it shouldn't.

jmoomaw wrote:
If the Turbo has a stuck valve (underflow) would the engine start?

Don't think so. It's my understanding that even a completely seized turbo wouldn't prevent it from starting, it would just run crappy and have no boost :)

jmoomaw wrote:
While the value is stuck would it build up back pressure?

If the EGR is stuck shut, then the pressure goes out the exhaust. The engine actually runs a lot better that way...

jmoomaw wrote:
I just had the EGR valve replaced. If I remove the splash guard, will I be able to see if any hoses are loose or damaged?

If you just had the EGR replaced, then I would definitely look to the intake hoses for the problem. They're plainly visible with all the covers on. If you take the plastic cover off, you can easily see the problematic vent line connecting the back-center of the head to the intake hose. It comes from a hockey-puck-looking "filter" that doesn't really filter anything.

jmoomaw wrote:
I will take a few hours tomorrow to look over the system. Hope to get input by them. I have a shop manual, but if anyone has photos that show what they are describing, this newbie would be better off.

Remove and inspect the intake-side and engine-side boost hoses. They probably have oily sludge and you'll want to flex them around in your hands to see if there are any cracks that might spread under boost. Pay careful attention to the bottom sides where oil might pool and deteriorate the rubber. Assuming you do find something, there's a thread on aftermarket silicone hoses that don't have this problem. Also, you'll want to do either an EHM (elephant hose mod) or a filter (provent, PVC pipe, etc) on the crankcase vent to reduce that oily sludge in the future. It's not good for your intake.

jmoomaw wrote:
PS> I installed the HHO system in the vehicle on Wednesday of this week. The Jeep immediately ran better. The HHO is added after the MAF sensor. I will find out how long it takes for the HHO to actually reach the air intake after the key is switched on. The generator is in the rear compartment. Today, I will disconnect the generator to see if it happens without it turned on.

Hmm, interesting that H injection is smoothing things out. All that system (and propane injection, etc) does is add combustible gasses to the oxygen, so essentially small amounts of fuel that don't have to go through the fuel injection process to get to the combustion chamber. You may want to check your fuel filter head to see if it needs bleeding. Air-in-filter could cause some of your symptoms as well. There's a little rubber plunger on the head and a bleeder screw on the back side (11mm I think). It bleeds similar to brake lines (pump 10-15 times, open screw to let out air, repeat till you get diesel). A small rubber tube connected to the bleeder helps see when you're getting bubble-free fuel out of it and keeps the engine from getting fuel sprayed on it.

Dan
Author:  nursecosmo [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CAC Hoses
dgeist wrote:

jmoomaw wrote:
I just had the EGR valve replaced. If I remove the splash guard, will I be able to see if any hoses are loose or damaged?

If you just had the EGR replaced, then I would definitely look to the intake hoses for the problem. They're plainly visible with all the covers on. If you take the plastic cover off, you can easily see the problematic vent line connecting the back-center of the head to the intake hose. It comes from a hockey-puck-looking "filter" that doesn't really filter anything.
Dan


Dan: It sounds like you might be describing the PCV valve. The EGR valve does not have any hoses attached. The EGR gases are routed through a steel pipe which is unlikely to fail. The EGR valve does have water hoses going to the cooler but if one of these failed it would not throw a code and all of the coolant would escape.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jim: Another thought that I had is that the "boost control solenoid" could also cause those codes when it fails. But I have my money on a split CAC hose. The Samco hoses are unnecessary if you buy the updated CAC hoses from the dealer (they are orange on the inside and are impervious to oil), but they look cool. Also; loose the K&N if you would like your engine to last awhile. Don't use any filter that you can see sunlight through. Search this topic on the forum.
Author:  Endurance [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
I dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet..... Did you bleed your fuel system? Maybe its starving.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Did you bleed out the air?
Endurance wrote:
I dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet..... Did you bleed your fuel system? Maybe its starving.


Diesels do not like air in the fuel system. Since the quantity of fuel injected on each stroke is very small, a very small air bubble can give you grief.
A lot of us got spoiled with the Bosch VE pump that VW and others used which would bleed its self and start and run on a totally dry fuel filter, but with the common rail, those days are gone forever.
If you don't have a lift pump, check the threads and put one in, you will never regret it.
Author:  jmoomaw [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  I see I have a day of checking ahead of me....
all good stuff and I must have read enough beforehand to understand it all. do I really need to dump the K and N Filter. I just paid $45.00 for the thing! Is it letting particles that are too large into the system?

thanks for all the input...I will let you know what I find. I would love to take the trouble lamp out and play with it tonight...but came down with a spring cold today so it may take a day or two two tackle it.

Jim
Author:  bigugly [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Not sure about the K&N but I put a S&B on mine. They claim over 99% particulate removal and better than OEM with higher flow. They use an 8 ply cotton gauze for their diesel applications that they applied to the rest of their filters as well.

I like them better than K&N. Check out their web site.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
Air in the fuel is certainly a possibility, but it will not cause the codes which are mentioned in the first post. If there is enough air in the fuel to cause stalling, it would be likely to throw a P0093 code. After this underboost problem is figured out, a lift pump is absolutely the first mod I would if it were my vehicle.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Use codes as a sugestion like a hunter...
...looks for droppings and evidence such as fur or munching on vegetation. I have fixed too many cars and trucks including diesels because some one else threw parts at it because of the code. Often an observant driver can tell you something more important than a code that flashes up on a code reader or a CEL that is on. Defective components, corroded, or dirty connections can make a code reader lie like a criminal politician. Like the computer people say put brown stinkies in you get brown stinkies out.
Like the hunter when you have the target in site you are ready to take your shot. :D
Author:  nursecosmo [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Use codes as a sugestion like a hunter...
warp2diesel wrote:
...looks for droppings and evidence such as fur or munching on vegetation. I have fixed too many cars and trucks including diesels because some one else threw parts at it because of the code. Often an observant driver can tell you something more important than a code that flashes up on a code reader or a CEL that is on. Defective components, corroded, or dirty connections can make a code reader lie like a criminal politician. Like the computer people say put brown stinkies in you get brown stinkies out.
Like the hunter when you have the target in site you are ready to take your shot. :D


I agree completely with you about code readers not always reporting the problem correctly. Some here have had air in fuel problems with their CRD but got no P0093. The underboost and EGR problem however, is completely unrelated to the fuel supply. That does not mean that there could not be multiple problems with the vehicle but I still lay my money on a boost leak.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I see I have a day of checking ahead of me....
jmoomaw wrote:
all good stuff and I must have read enough beforehand to understand it all. do I really need to dump the K and N Filter. I just paid $45.00 for the thing! Is it letting particles that are too large into the system?

thanks for all the input...I will let you know what I find. I would love to take the trouble lamp out and play with it tonight...but came down with a spring cold today so it may take a day or two two tackle it.

Jim
Hold the K&N up to a bright light. See all the little pricks of light shining through? Those holes average 1/2 to 1 micron wide which allows dust and even particles of sand to do things to your engine which are needless to say, bad. Because a diesel engine sucks so much air through it, you need the best filtration possible. The S&B is a good filter but I think that the Amsoil EA filter is better. I Myself just use Fram paper filters which do a very good job and are easy to change.
Author:  jmoomaw [ Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  More evidence.....oil caked on underside of CAC inlet hose..
I went to bleed the fuel filter but will need a slightly larger clear tube to get over the bleeder value. For the fun of it I rolled the plastic mesh over the hose. The nylon mesh has several rot, worn spots and it is caked with dried oil. There is also dried soot on the pipe clamp where it enters the CAC. Looks like there is oil spray blowing out somewhere....Nothing on the underside of the hood. Ran my hand over the black felt like material and only came away with small amount of grease consistently light all over.

I will pull the hoses when I have more time and feel better. Check for blowout underneath the hose and for cracks.

You folks are great!

Jim
Author:  nursecosmo [ Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:54 am ]
Post subject: 
All of the original CAC hoses sweat oil through them. That is why they split. The oil soaks through the rubber and deteriorates it. If you can see where oil has sprayed out onto something, it would be a good indication that you have a boost leak in that area. The turbo side hose is usually the one to split because it is much hotter before the intercooler and the intercooler also acts as an oil trap to keep a lot of the blowby oil from getting to the engine side hose.
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