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Bio-Diesel in Winter - Local Station Say Don't Use It
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Author:  BKH [ Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Bio-Diesel in Winter - Local Station Say Don't Use It
My local bio-diesel truck stop was out of bio when I pulled in yesterday. I went in and asked what was going on. The manager said they won't have any more in until spring and that it's not good to use bio in the winter as it might gel up and cause engine problems.

Is this for real????
Author:  LibertyCRD [ Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Depends on the mixture. B2 or B5 or B10...those won't gel so easily because it's a lower concentration. But if you are talking B20 or higher then yes it will gel faster in cold weather and they have a good point there.

I wish I knew where to get biodiesel around here.. Can't find any place at all! :(
Author:  Ricky5 [ Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
I get mine in Boulder. Boulder runs its bus system on B20, so I would have to say that gas station doesn't have a clue! When I see the buses there the next time I will ask them ....
Author:  dog_party [ Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
As I understand it, BioDiesel has a slightly higher cloud point than petro #2 diesel (it turns to gel a little sooner). Petro #2 diesel itself has a cloud point of 3 or 4 degreesF. It is my understanding that stations in cold climates mix petro #2 with either petro #1 (kerosene), or diesel cold-weather additive, when the temp averages below freezing, to keep it from gelling. They should do the same thing to their BioDiesel. But, even mixed, I would stick to B20 or lower in the winter. The higher the B percentage, the higher the cloud point. B100's cloud point is 32 degreesF.

I grew up in Ft. Collins, CO, so I know the average temps you're dealing with. If your station in Denver stops selling bio in winter they either (1) don't know much about biodiesel (maybe they're afraid to mix it), or (2) don't winterize their fuel. In either case, I don't think I'd be filling up there any more.

Here's a great report for anyone intested:biodiesel.org cold flow impacts report

I don't know where in KY you are, so here's a retail fueling sites map for finding the places in and around...well, everywhere. Just click on the state you're interested in searching and it'll give you a list. Coincidentally enough, I went to college in Morehead and still have family in Ballard, Fayette and Menifee counties. If someone from NorthernVA/DC (where I went to high school) posts in this topic I'll have a good part of my nomadic life covered.

I think most of the buses and commercial trucks that use bio have fuel tank/line heaters and are probably left running, plugged in, or stored in a garage when not in use. I wouldn't bank on even straight #2 petro in my tank through a NorthernCO winter without some winter additive handy. I have some arctic express biodiesel antigel in the truck for my bio fillup in Philly this weekend (depending on how cold it actually gets). I'll post my findings when I get back. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
Author:  grywlfbg [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  BD use in winter
Most people suggest not using B100 below 40F. B20 can be run into the negative numbers, especially if your garage is heated.

You can't really use anti-gel because the anti-gel needs to be formulated for the specific feed stock used to make the BD. So if you're using refined waste fryer oil like I do you have no way of knowing what the feed stock is making anti-gell additives essentially impossible.

So if your supplier only carried B100 and then mixed it themselves into B20 or whatever then yeah, they can't really store it full strength in winter. They could however get B20 or something blended by their distributor and sell that in winter. -<shrug>- Probably costs a lot for them to do that.
Author:  oldnavy [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Lowest I ever run B100 was about 36* F, but I know lots of people using B20 to B50 in the winter in MI, WI and Canada in VW's and MB cars.
Author:  dog_party [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Filled up with B20 for the first time at a station in Deleware. EVIC said air temp was 28 degrees and B20 was being stored in an above-ground tank (with a big American flag on it :-)). Station didn't have any problem selling it at that temp. And I didn't have any problem pumping or using it at that temp. The Liberty is rattling and smoking less on acceleration with just that one tank. I'l continue to seek out B20 through the winter, but I think I'll wait 'til summer for the B100.

Good point on using anti-gel in waste/recycled biofuel. I guess we can only wildly guess what that feed stock might be. Haven't worked with it yet, but plan to exhaust my options.
Author:  oldnavy [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
There is no current anti-gel for biodiesel other then just mixing it with dino D2 fuel. :cry: However I'm sure someone will eventually develop one.
Author:  grywlfbg [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:48 am ]
Post subject:  BioD anti-gel
Some info from the TDIClub forums:

gel-point calculator
http://www.duffscience.com/biodiesel/bi ... lation.htm

BioD anti-gel:
http://store.avlube.com/pr40biwifuad.html

Powerservice has a BioD specific additive but states it's only for B20 - I'd just use regular Powerservice at that low of a BioD blend:
http://powerservice.com/arcticexp_bd_antigel.asp

Somwhere I read about another BioD additive that was specific to different types of feedstocks but I can't find it now. But I'd just blend w/ D2 down to B20 and run w/ it.
Author:  oldnavy [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:24 am ]
Post subject: 
Well I'll be horn swaggled seems they have do some cold weather improvements. I never really worried about gelled fuel too much here where I live anyway. I've only had a problem one time and that was when it was 16* out and I went through an automatic car wash. At the time I was running 50 cetane AMOCO non bio fuel and a quick addition of PS 911 cured the problem in two or three minutes.
Author:  dog_party [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:32 am ]
Post subject: 
That gel-point calculator is great! I had to bookmark that.

I had my PS Arctic Express BioAntigel in the truck...until I read the warning at the bottom of the PS page that says, "Store Arctic Express Biodiesel Antigel in a heated space at a temperature above +50°F." Is it just me, or does it seem strange to everyone, that I need to keep my ARCTIC EXPRESS antigel stored at ABOVE 50 degrees?

I'm not that horribly worried about it right now, since my EVIC has listed above 65 degrees since I got back from Philly on Sunday where it was 20). But I think I might sacrifice a test sample of the Artic Express...maybe in the freezer...you know, see what happens. See if that warning is CYA legalese, or if I actually need to store my antigel somewhere other than in my parked truck on cold nights.

Has anyone tried out the Primrose stuff? Has anyone tried out anything from the AV Lubricants company? I know PS pretty well, but I haven't seen Primrose items at the truck stops around here.
Author:  bbo [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm guessing maybe antigel is like antifreeze ... can't use that at 100% either or it doesnt work as intended.

maybe when it's mixed it works better .. I never looked at my powerservice bottle either.
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