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 Post subject: B20 & Zinc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:07 pm 
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http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/WdB3e4v_aqiT_9VZ4fO2-w

While I'm pro biodiesel/biofuels I'm not sure how I managed to miss this: "Are there any materials compatibility issues with B20?
If it comes in contact with brass, bronze, copper, lead, tin, and zinc for a prolonged period of time B20 will degrade and create sediments. Lead solders and zinc linings should be avoided, as should copper pipes, brass regulators, and copper fittings. Affected equipment should be replaced with steel or aluminum. The effect of B20 on vulnerable materials is significantly reduced compared to higher blends."- biodiesel.org

pic from: http://sbmar.com/Maintenance/PDF/EagleCoreBioReport-Diesel_April-2006.pdf

Is this an issue or strictly cosmetic?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:22 pm 
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It is an issue, but primarily in the form of avoiding keeping the same biodiesel in contact with those materials. These metals are not generally used in vehicle fuel systems, but they are sometimes used in storage tanks or fittings. This, for instance, is why when I built my 55 gallon drum fuel rack, the plumbing was black iron, rather than galvanized.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:44 pm 
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As far as biodiesel is concerned, the real issue is probably the gasket and seals as the esters can swell them up pretty good. To get something resistant, they would potentially have to go to a fluorinated rubber (which they may already use) or possibly a fluorosilicone.

The metals corrosion is likely a contaminants issue. It's very difficult to get a transesterification to go to 100% completion unless one uses a boatload of excess alcohol. It is very unlikely, and dang near impossible, to get the alcohol anhydrous (water-free). It can be purchased, but it can be an order of magnitude higher in cost. The oil itself will have some water in it and that's not necessarily easy to remove either. From what I've read, the base (KOH or NaOH) are generally removed with a water wash/misting. By the time you get to the final product, there are likely traces of the organic acids from non-converted oil, traces of water just because the ester has some affinity for it, and traces of base remaining because it's going to be hanging out in that trace water.

No matter how careful a one is when making the biodiesel, they can't count on all of the water, alcohol, and base to simply separate out based incompatibility and density. The traces that are left behind, while being on the order of parts per thousand or parts per million, would be sufficient to cause corrosion processes to occur in the metal parts given the length of time, temperature, and possibly even the pressures involved. The only way to really alleviate this would be neutralize the base with an acid and then distill the biodiesel product to pure contaminant-free fuel. Do the large companies rely on the phase separation process of purification or do they distill?


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 Post subject: biodiesel--and zine and copper..
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:31 pm 
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the issue is oxidation!

both of this elements and their compounds shorten the storage life for biodiesel.. its called polymerization.

all oils will polymerize...gee do you like polyurethane for a wood finish...but you wouldn't think about pouring into you fuel tank..what about something closer..boiled linseed oil...nice finish but a lousy long term fuel..short it'd be fine..but what's short..that's right it depends...diesel and gasoline have shelf life's...well so does biodiesel..and somethings shorten this life.


kdlewis1975,
I disagree with what you are saying.. completely.. your statement is just wrong.
"No matter how careful a one is when making the biodiesel, they can't count on all of the water, alcohol, and base to simply separate out based incompatibility and density. The traces that are left behind, while being on the order of parts per thousand or parts per million, would be sufficient to cause corrosion processes to occur in the metal parts given the length of time, temperature, and possibly even the pressures involved. The only way to really alleviate this would be neutralize the base with an acid and then distill the biodiesel product to pure contaminant-free fuel. Do the large companies rely on the phase separation process of purification or do they distill?"

pure BS. so how many gallons of BD have you made?

first..water/alcolhol and KOH/NaOH are water soluable...they wash out in water...OIL/BD doesn't!
2nd..for ASTM spec biodiesel the PPM of unconverted FFA is just that in PPM range! oh just for you info the biodiesel does contain some KOH/Naoh it will not contain FFA...and the product will be basic in nature..or said another way it will not corrode steel.
3rd-biodiesel isn't distilled! settle( via gravity, centrifuge) are the ways used!
4th - adding an acid to biodiesel will cause a reverse reaction..IE you'll make FFA's(acidic in nature) from biodiesel..BAD!
so quote your sources and backup what you say! fyi JFT is full of usless info

sorry if I seem to come on strong about biodiesel posts, but I've been making and using it for several years. I also know something about making it.

-dkenny

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 Post subject: Please excuse my utter and total ignorance....
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:50 am 
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Gosh dkenny. Obviously, your biodiesel knowledge is far superior to mine. You're absolutely right, I haven't made a single ounce of biodiesel...but I'm thinking about it. I've made a few kg esters based on undecylenic acid for work, but that experience doesn't count because it was at work and not meant to to fuel for my Jeep.

I'm really disappointed that my undergraduate education in chemistry nor my graduate education in chemistry didn't prepare me for the mystical nature of synthesizing biodiesel. I need to contact Missouri-Rolla and the Univ. of Michigan and tell them to add this to their curriculum so that their future alumni won't be as ignorant as I am. Ironically, in a court of law, I could be an expert witness on some topics because I have a PhD in chemistry, but in this case, I have to cite a bunch of textbooks and cite a gazillion literature references. Transesterification is an equilibrium process. It's very difficult to get 100% conversion. Until you explained it to me, I didn't realize that the chemical principles for esters didn't apply to biodiesel. Thanks for the chemistry lesson.

Here are a few things to consider:

1. Yes, KOH, NaOH, MeOH (EtOH, PrOH, i-PrOH, and BuOH) are either soluble or miscible with water. However, trace amounts of all of these will still be soluble in the fatty acid esters. When one wants to remove these on the laboratory scale, they typically wash the organic phase with brine. After a few times of that, they "dry" the organic phase with a hygroscopic salt such as Na2SO4 and MgSO4.

2. I'm not 100% sure what you getting at in #2 above other that having some basic catalyst and free fatty acid left behind can fall within ASTM specs. Does everyone who makes their own biodiesel rigourously test it to make sure it fall within the spec? The corporate guys probably make sure this is the case. Most individuals probably go on faith that if they follow the procedure, they make something within spec...and that's probably true most of the time.

"oh just for you info the biodiesel does contain some KOH/Naoh it will not contain FFA" is not necessarily true. If no water is present, the free fatty acid salt (note the nomenclature) will be the only thing there. However, when water is around, there is an equilibrium reaction at work: (free fatty salt with alkali) + (water) <equilibrium arrow> (free fatty acid) + (alkali hydroxide). You can argue, but if that base is present, water will be present too. It's nearly impossible to have one without the other. Your statement that "the mixture is basic in nature" is correct...due to the above equilibrium. The free fatty acid salt is a proton acceptor. In this case, water is the proton donor and is therefore acting as an acid.

Whether or not a substance will corrode steel is no indication of whether it qualifies as an acid or base. There are like 7 different acid-base theories. None of them include "things that do not corrode steel are bases." The two prevailing theories are Bronsted (molecules are designated as proton donors or acceptors) and that of Gilbert N. Lewis (molecules/atoms are electron acceptors or donors) Amines can promote corrosion of steel and they are basic. This is somewhat subjective too since different alloys of steel will have differing resistances to corrosion.

To really make a declaration of whether a metal will corrode, one could refer to a Pourbaix diagram: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pourbaix_diagram Pourbaix was a maniac and constructed these phase diagrams for an amazing number of materials...must have sucked to have been one of his graduate students. You already established that a biodiesel mixture will be basic if anything, so if the if the electrochemical potential is in right range, there is a possibility that the metal in question could corrode.

3. Dude...I was asking a question. I know DIY's recover the biodiesel based on density and immiscibility. Most people aren't going to have equipment of sufficient scale to do efficient distillations. However, a large commercial facility could. I was asking based on curiosity. I wasn't making a declaration of how it was done.

4. "adding an acid to biodiesel will cause a reverse reaction..IE you'll make FFA's(acidic in nature) from biodiesel..BAD!"

This isn't necessarily true. It kinda depends on the acid and how one carries this out. If I neutralized with acetic acid (vinegar minus the water component), it wouldn't be a problem. The pKa of acetic acid won't be too different from that of the free fatty acid and it wouldn't catalyst the reaction. Now, if one used sulfuric acid, it could be a problem. However, the proposition was to "neutralize" the mixture, not make it acidic. And even one was to make the mixture acidic with a strong acid, it would be okay as long as there is minimal water present. If one overshot, you could just neutralize with baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)...just be ready for the CO2 evolution.

FYI...a very common method of performing an esterification or transesterification is by using a strong acid as a catalyst instead of a base. This usually works better because it's a little more tolerant of water.

I'm not sure what JFT is...I'm guessing "Journal of Fuel Chemistry and Technology" ???? Usually if something is a peer reviewed journal, the information is generally accurate.

5. "all oils will polymerize...gee do you like polyurethane for a wood finish...but you wouldn't think about pouring into you fuel tank..what about something closer..boiled linseed oil...nice finish but a lousy long term fuel..short it'd be fine..but what's short..that's right it depends...diesel and gasoline have shelf life's...well so does biodiesel..and somethings shorten this life"

It depends...you just can't declare that all oils will polymerize. I work with silicones. Those don't polymerize unless they're treated under extremely harsh conditions. I think polyurethanes are great wood coatings. They also make a great resin for the topcoat on a lot of cars. Love 'em love 'em love 'em, but I wouldn't put it in my tank. Oils that are completed hydrogenated won't polymerize. And as you pointed out, linseed oil does polymerize, because it's unsaturated.

Gasoline and diesel have respectable shelf lives because of their processing. Diesel is distillation cut of crude. This is a good first step in terms of purification. Both gasoline and diesel are hydrotreated to remove sulfur. A bonus to this process is that it removes the non-aromatic unsaturation and therefore "removes" the components that can undergo polymerization.

6. Probably the smartest thing you said in your entire critical analysis of me was: "It's all about oxidation!" There's no denying that. However, oxidation can be viewed in a few different ways. Just read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidation

Cu and Zn aren't really good complexers of double bonds. Their oxidation/reduction process is likely separate from what happens to the biodiesel. For biodiesel, it probably comes down to the unsaturation and presence of oxygen. I have an interest in biodiesel too, and I've pondered how I would reduce the oxidation of my product if I was to make it. There are two simple things you could do:

i.) Get a tank of N2 with a regulator and sparge you tank or drum of biodiesel product. This will displace the dissolved oxygen. Getting rid of this would severely retard the rate of oxidation and lead to increased shelf life. If one wanted to be extra fancy, they could leave the N2 hooked up so that the storage vessel always has a blanket of N2 over it...I would only do this if I had a relief valve that kept it the pressure under 2 psi or something like that. We don't want to be popping drums due to overpressure.

ii.) You could literally add an anti-oxidant. Vitamin E is very commonly used. My company, for instance, uses it to increase the shelf life of many of its personal care products. With an appropriate amount, things survive some pretty harsh accelerated aging relative to the control. It acts as a radical scavenger and helps suppress the polymerization reactions. So, when you buy your drum of MeOH, have them send you a gallon of Vitamin E too. I don't know how much would be required. I would guess on the order of 500 ppm would be a good starting place.

I usually let these things go, but it's not that you came on strong...you came on strongly ignorant. You might find boning up on your organic chemistry would be of benefit. Throughout my education, I learned of all kinds of things I didn't know. I would generally reach out to someone like you for practical advice on how to make biodiesel. I couldn't bring myself to do that now no matter how many years of experience you have.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:35 pm 
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kdlewis1975 wrote:
...

No matter how careful a one is when making the biodiesel, they can't count on all of the water, alcohol, and base to simply separate out based incompatibility and density. The traces that are left behind, while being on the order of parts per thousand or parts per million, would be sufficient to cause corrosion processes to occur in the metal parts given the length of time, temperature, and possibly even the pressures involved. The only way to really alleviate this would be neutralize the base with an acid and then distill the biodiesel product to pure contaminant-free fuel. Do the large companies rely on the phase separation process of purification or do they distill?
Bull. Many many many people have logged millions of miles on good biodiesel, and there is no issue with corrosion. None. So stop resting on your laurels and make some bio. And keep zinc out of the fuel system.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:04 pm 
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Wow Guys! Just keep it at a civil level of respect in this thread.

I am not going to throw my .02 cents in as to who is "absolutely correct" but instead ask to keep "most" of the conversation directed toward the "practical application" of making BIOFUELS on a smaller scale.

Solar Drying (after normal washing techniques) and Testing PH levels will usually keep you in the "safe zone" when it comes to making and using BIODiesel. Solar Drying of the preproduction WVO is a good thing also.

Carry On... :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:28 pm 
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kdlewis1975,
I sorry I came on so strong..but when people speak bad of biodiesel and try to provide inaccurate information..I just have to say something.
take you FYI quoted below..

FYI...a very common method of performing an esterification or transesterification is by using a strong acid as a catalyst instead of a base. This usually works better because it's a little more tolerant of water.

its tolerant of water because it doesn't make soap, but the esterification process slows to a stop due the water created during the process.

so I'd like to ask what do you mean by 'a little more tolerant' ?

thanks for the information on hydrogenated oils ...I thought all vegetable base oils would polymerisze...I guess I was wrong that point.

also you are correct using Vitamin E would help slow/stop the oxidation in biodiesel. storing under nitrogen also works
i choose to go the other route...use it up fast.

most homebrewers do go on faith that the process works there are readily available tests to help ensure high enough conversion is reached. a simple test of dropping 3ml of bidiesel into 27ml of pure methanol...is good example

-dkenny

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:56 pm 
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kdlewis1975 :evil: dkenny

Smackdown...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:43 pm 
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aandlwoods wrote:
kdlewis1975 :evil: dkenny

Smackdown...


...depends on the contest...but if it's boxing or a snowball fight, he'd win.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:45 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:57 pm 
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yea maybe..boxing or snowball..;) I've thrown a few snowballs in my days living the great frozen north...

yea...I'm actually from MI :)


what you do you mean by 'a little more tolerant of water'..in reference to acid esterification?

-dkenny

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:12 pm 
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well that was a fun read guys thanks for the feedback!

No worries here, but I'm thinning my blend down to 5% from filling up with B20 for now anyways.

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blake1827 wrote:
well that was a fun read guys thanks for the feedback!

No worries here, but I'm thinning my blend down to 5% from filling up with B20 for now anyways.
Yes, now that the night low temperature here has dropped into the 20s, I've cut the B100 back to B70 or so...

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 Post subject: I love Biodiesel, great conversations
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:31 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:40 pm 
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dkenny wrote:
kdlewis1975,
I sorry I came on so strong..but when people speak bad of biodiesel and try to provide inaccurate information..I just have to say something.
take you FYI quoted below..


Ya know, my father is convinced that the hole in the ozone layer is a result of the space shuttle flying through the atmosphere and punching holes in it (as if it's saran wrap). He and his buddies on the railroad have determined this to be so. By no means am I an expert on the atmosphere and global warming, I'm a little more well read than his coworkers on science types of things. No amount of reasoning by anyone will change his opinion otherwise.

It's okay. You have a lot of good empirical experience. You just hit a nerve. I have no problem with people disagreeing with something as long it comes with some good logical reasoning. And really, I'm here to learn stuff too.

dkenny wrote:
"FYI...a very common method of performing an esterification or transesterification is by using a strong acid as a catalyst instead of a base. This usually works better because it's a little more tolerant of water.

its tolerant of water because it doesn't make soap, but the esterification process slows to a stop due the water created during the process.

so I'd like to ask what do you mean by 'a little more tolerant' "


You're on the right track.

...a little explanation...the reaction mechanisms are different.
Esterification --> reaction of a carboxylic acid (fatty acid in our case) and an alcohol to give an ester...can only do this with a strong acid catalyst
Transesterification --> reaction of an ester with an alcohol to give a different ester...can work with either base or acid catalyst

Strong acid refers to acids such as sulfuric acid, triflic acid, hydrochloric acid, nitric acid, etc.

In a base catalyzed transesterification, the base converts the alcohol into an alkoxide which then attacks the fatty acid-glycerine esters at the carbonyl (that "C" with the two lines connecting the "O" in the structure). This is an equilibrium process because the glyicerine residues can be converted into an alkoxide and displace the methanol on the newly made methyl ester. These two will continue to duke it out (kind of like dkenny and I having our snowball fight) until an equilibrium is reached. So, if a stoichiometric (meaning, one MeOH for every biodiesel molecule you intend to make), you'll actually have a near equal mixture of methyl esters and glycerine esters. So, to get around this, you add a healthy excess of methanol to make sure there are enough of them to beat up on those glycerine esters (think of it as dkenny and I having our snowball fight and me bringing 9 of my closest friends to make sure I win). Although an excess of methanol is used, there will still could be a a small amount of glycerine esters still hanging out (dkenny would be able to whoop at least one or more of my friends in the snowball fight).

In regards to water, there will be some amount that comes in with the WVO, methanol, and KOH. The water itself, with the help of KOH, can react with they glycerine esters to give the fatty acid. The fatty acid isn't involved in further reactions because the base basic abstracts the proton from it to create the fatty acid salt. The fatty acid salt won't participate in any of the reactions going on. During the water wash, some of these are washed out, some probably are converted back to the fatty acid, some remain a fatty acid salt. One potentially ends up with an additional fatty acid for every water molecular present. Back in the day when people made lye soap, this was pretty much the reaction...animal fat + base + water = soap...called a saponification.

A schematic of the chemical reaction of a base catalyzed reaction:
Image

Now for the acid case, we still have an equilibrium. The initial stage of the reaction is a little different. The strong acid that is added will protonate the oxygen of the carbonyl (again, the "O" connected to the "C" with two lines in the figure). That carbonyl C is then attacked by the alcohol, water, or glycerine residues. Again to make sure that you get a predominantly methyl ester, a healthy excess of alcohol is added.

Here are where things are different: the strong acid catalyst doesn't differentiate between the esters or the fatty acids when it comes to protonating the carbonyl. The amount of methyl ester relative to the fatty acid is determine primarily by the amount of excess methanol added to the reaction. Formation of a fatty acid isn't a dead end in this case. Therefore, the acid catalyzed reaction is "more tolerant" of the presence of water.

Schematic for a proposed acid catalyzed biodiesel synthesis:
Image


Now in regards to actually using the acid route, it would be a good idea to try to neutralize that before doing the water wash. As dkenny mentioned in a previous post, addition of the water would result formation of the fatty acid from the methyl esters. At room temperature, the rate of reversion would be slow relative to what it would be at the temperature the reaction was originally done. If one was separated the biodiesel from the acid/methanol/water mixture, one could possibly get by without the neutralization.

Because of the equipment most people use, the acid could be a problem. The base route is probably more convenient for most people.

If one wanted to use the acid route, there is the possibility of using a supported acid catalyst. We use this for some of our processes. One example is Dowex DR-2030 (manufactured by Dow Chemical, they have a whole range of these materials, this is just the one I've used). This material is basically a bunch lf little amber color polymer beads that are around 1 mm in size. They are a copolymer of styrene, divinylbenzene, and styrenesulfonic acid. The cool thing about these, and why we use them for some things, is that you just filter the beads out. The acid stays with them because it is bound to the polymer ("supported"). There's no requirement to neutralize the reaction. Now it is known that a trace amount of the acid will sometimes bleed out of the beads into the product mixture. The other cool thing is that these are recycled and simply reused multiple times. Basically, the product is pumped out and the beads are left behind with a "heel." Fresh reactants are put in and the more product is made.

To be honest, I'm not sure of how well these would work for the transesterification. In theory, it shouldn't be a problem. The molecules, actually polymers we manufacture, are much larger in size than anything someone would see in biodiesel mixture. Something I might do after the new year...I have too many things to go done before the end of the this year...is sneak a few of these reactions in amongst my other work and see how well it goes.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:17 pm 
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UFO wrote:
kdlewis1975 wrote:
...

No matter how careful a one is when making the biodiesel, they can't count on all of the water, alcohol, and base to simply separate out based incompatibility and density. The traces that are left behind, while being on the order of parts per thousand or parts per million, would be sufficient to cause corrosion processes to occur in the metal parts given the length of time, temperature, and possibly even the pressures involved. The only way to really alleviate this would be neutralize the base with an acid and then distill the biodiesel product to pure contaminant-free fuel. Do the large companies rely on the phase separation process of purification or do they distill?
Bull. Many many many people have logged millions of miles on good biodiesel, and there is no issue with corrosion. None. So stop resting on your laurels and make some bio. And keep zinc out of the fuel system.


I think when this thread was started, there was a question to the whether the use of biodiesel could result in corrosion of components in the fuel system. There was even a picture posted of a fuel system component with the zinc coating "worn" away.

Just to stipulate...I'm not bashing biodiesel. If I didn't think it was worthwhile, I wouldn't be considering making it myself. If I would have put a "could" up there instead of a "would," fewer feathers probably would have been ruffled. The thing that surprises me is that people will accept the concept that a lubricant additive can be present in the fuel in the ppm levels will aid the longevity of the pump and fuel system components, yet suggesting that water/base present in fuel in ppm levels could/would lead to corrosion of metal components torques everyone off. The only point I was trying to make was that if people are seeing corrosion, perhaps it could be the "stuff left behind" in the biodiesel.

I was just trying to point out that there could be stuff left behind as a result of the synthesis that could cause corrosion. If there is a part that originally coated with zinc no longer has that coating, some corrosion had to take place. The zinc's purpose is to act as a sacrificial coating. I didn't say anything about adding zinc. If it's there, it's because it's already on the parts (to guard against corrosion).

If people have gone millions of miles with now corrosion problems, that's great. I'm glad to hear that. However, was it B100, B20, B5, etc.? Would this make a difference? It's my training to look at these things objectively. If people don't "see" corrosion in practice, this makes me feel good because it's less I have to worry about. However, I'm not sure I would go with the definitive "None" in this case. It could be that all kinda of other things fail on the vehicle ending it's life before a corrosion issue has the chance to arise. The bio-revolution along with common rail technology are still relatively recent developments; we don't have decades of history here we can draw conclusions from.

...getting off my laurels...well I'm debating what kind of equipment I would want to use (I'm partial to glass, but not real good for base), where I want to buy it, whether to go acid or base route for the synthesis, where I get the raw materials, etc. My wife and I also had our first child last Sunday, so time is going to be tight for the next few months in taking care of both of the "hers" along with all of the other things going on.

I'll be sure to report to you guys the result of the solid acid catalyst experiments to make biodiesel if I can work them in next year.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:25 pm 
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[quote="dken
thanks for the information on hydrogenated oils ...I thought all vegetable base oils would polymerisze...I guess I was wrong that point.

also you are correct using Vitamin E would help slow/stop the oxidation in biodiesel. storing under nitrogen also works
i choose to go the other route...use it up fast.

most homebrewers do go on faith that the process works there are readily available tests to help ensure high enough conversion is reached. a simple test of dropping 3ml of bidiesel into 27ml of pure methanol...is good example

-dkenny[/quote]

Yeah, the unsaturation is double edged sword. It has the potential to polymerize. However, it's also what allows biodiesel to have a respectably low pour point. It hinders the ability of the fatty acid chains to align themselves and crystallize into a wax. Fully hydrogenated oil is essentially gives you Crisco.

You guys probably already do this since I'm assuming your store your material in metal drums, but excluding UV-light (sunlight would be the biggy) should help the longevity too.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:43 pm 
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DarbyWalters wrote:
Solar Drying (after normal washing techniques) and Testing PH levels will usually keep you in the "safe zone" when it comes to making and using BIODiesel. Solar Drying of the preproduction WVO is a good thing also.


Just out of curiosity...is "solar drying" simply sitting the cauldron of biodiesel or WVO out in the sun? Hmmmm...not going to work so well at this stage of the year here in MI. :cry: At least conditions would be right in a few weeks for dkenny and I to have our snowball fight.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:47 pm 
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kdlewis1975,

AWSOME... thank you so kindly for the in depth answer.. :D :D :D :D :D

now some background why I was asking and I actually have another question if you have time.

first 2 1/2 years ago I was faced with 300+ gallons of 'bad' oil..this oil titrated over 13 KOH.
please note this is using a home brew titration solution (0.1%..not 0.1N) solution of KOH.

I knew acid esterification worked. at the time there were 2 main methods known to biodiesel makers
the ISU and FATTA method.. the ISU is much closer to what you described..used excess quantities of methanol..
the ISU was required several complex( keep in mind most home brewer are not math major or chemists ) calculations. even more so since home brewers used a different method for titration. the FATTA method which some use, does work, but seems more hit or miss.. remember those 300 gallons of bad oil that I had??

well being and engineer the math part of the ISU didn't bother me. so I started there..after I had several batches 'to work'. of I am not speaking of acid esterification only. I follow this by transesterification. I worked to reduce the math to something home brewer could easily figure. I also work to reduce the amount of methanol used compared to ISU.

now a little background, pardon if this is boring but some people might not know this.. but typical home brewer's use around 20-22% methanol. stoic is 13% ?..in other words your 9 friends in the snow ball fight( love the analogy. :D )

ok now back to acid esterification and my question..
so I came up with this simple method
(Starting titration - 3 ) *0.2ml/L = amount of acid( I use H2SO4, cheap and easy to get, the best??) needed per liter of oil
methanol - I worked it to needing only 60% of the oil volume. the total with transesterifcation is around 22% way less than the 30-50% of the ISU.
the other thing about my method is that over 18KOH one must drain the water/methanol/acid out before starting the transesterification.

also the goal, for us, using acid esterification to make biodiesel isn't to convert all the oil( oil/ FFA) into methyl esters only the FFA part. or put another way. reduce the titration to something the transesterification process could handle without making too much soap( I think you refered this as a Fatty acid salt).

question? is it possible that with the reduced amount of methanol that the process slows/stops( hence my question about the more tolerance to water)? I was just trying to follow your diagram again( pardon if this seems rambling, but its late and I've had a long day)..the water created( or prior existing) would latch onto the FFA keeping from becoming a methyl ester( during the acid stage). I was looking the diagram in the lower left.

I know from all the batches that I made using acid/base processing, if water is present ( mainly from the oil) the process doesn't proceed as far as oil that's dry to start with.


for equipment being a problem...I think you'd agree the loosing 4 black iron fittings while in the middle of process a problem.I know I did.

would know of some like your beads that is
cost effective
reusable
pulls out the water in the presence of methanol and H2S04
would work for a home brewer type setup, ie, not an industrial plant
this would, in theory, allow less acid to be used and lower the titration before the base stage.


thanks again for your answer

-dkenny

_________________
84 BB school bus, DD8.2L turbo ->the transmission died..too expensive to fix..it'll be heading to the scrap yard..:(4/11)..Bus gone to Scarp 8/23/11 :(
06 Liberty CRD
'99 dodge ram 2500 quad cab, 4x4, 24v
all Biodiesel powered when its warm enough


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