Boosting instructions are specific -

- do not charge battery with the vehicle battery cables connected

- do not even use a starting booster, which will damage the ECM and other modules

- connect the boosting cables, positive(+) first, then the negative(-) when boosting vehicle IGN is OFF, engine not running, boosted vehicle IGN switch OFF
- start the boosting engine, let engine run a few minutes to restore charge, which will also charge boosted battery
- start the boosted vehicle, remove the negative(-) jumper cable, then the positive(+) jumper cable
- if boosted engine dies, do not reconnect battery cables until both vehicles are switched OFF
- begin again, at the top^

The procedures are to protect the ECM and other electronic computer modules in both vehicles

Cold ambients really eats batterys - if your red-top gel-cell battery needs more than one boost this season, time for replacement
- a lead-acid of the same capacity is good in a daily driver which is seldom off-roaded
- a red-top replacement is required for intense off-roading as it cannot spill battery acid
- a red-top is required if KJ is used in long-storage service like week-end outings, vacation tow along, etc, as gel-cels retain charge over longer periods than lead-acid versions, and better survive deep-discharge events

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

I wish that you had posted this info 3 weeks ago Tex, would prob have saved me an ECM

_________________
06 CRD LTD ( Euro )

With my background and training, it's just common sense to me, not requiring any conscious thought - takes several posted incidents\crys for help to stir my thought processes and go public - same circumstance, same failure, similar KJ CRD vehicle (auto), same season on another forum prompted this outburst..............

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

Sorry, but I totally disagree.

Close, but this is the “Correct” way and why.

Both vehicles OFF. Connect battery cables. Start good vehicle and let run for awhile to restore charge in good vehicle and also helps to charge dead vehicle.
MOST IMPORTANT!! TURN OFF GOOD VEHICLE!!!

Now try to start dead vehicle (Good vehicle ignition OFF).
Once dead vehicle is started, disconnect cables. Start good vehicle, drive away happy.

Now for the reason you don’t want to have the good vehicle running when trying to start the dead one.
Understand that once the engine is running, the alternator “Takes Over” the electrical system and says, "Im the king cheese, get your juice from me." (Notice the battery surface charge is only 12.6 volts and the normal running voltage is 13.2 – 14.4 volts, depending on temperature).
Now when the dead vehicle’s starter sends that 300+ amp surge to your little girly 100 amp alternator, watch and see how fast the diodes blow out the back side. Understand that the current out of the battery is not instant. It is a chemical reaction and it takes a little bit of time for it to produce it. The alternator is already supplying all the power, so it takes a full hit. Done it too many times to count.
When the good car is NOT running, the alternator is off line, and all that happens when the current surge hits is the battery voltage goes down. Nothing cares at this point.

Of course you can do it with the engine running and you may get away with it a few times, but the way above PROTECTS the good vehicle.
Problem is, if your way out in the boonies and your buddy needs a jump (as this is usually when it happens), do you feel lucky?

How about just using a jump box

1. Hook up cables
2. Turn on jump box
3. Start dead vehicle
4. Turn off jump box
5. Unhook cables
6. Smile and be happy

_________________
2006 Black Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
K&N, Samco Hoses, Michelin 245/70-16 LTX A/T2, Fumoto F-102, V-Force Muffler, Mopar, Hitch, Trailer Wiring, Skid Plates, Slush Mats, Rear Shelf, Predator Stage 1, Transgo, ORM & CodeReader, Facet 40109 Pump
"IT'S A DIESEL THING, YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND"
Certified Services Auto & Truck Repair

Jumper boxes and jumper vehicles frying the ECU are nothing but myths. Jumper boxes cannot operate at greater than 14 volts when connected to the vehicle and usually less than 12 volts when the jumped vehicle's battery is drained. the same goes for jumping from another vehicle.

There is no dangerous "magic current" contained in the jumper box or a jumping vehicle's battery. There are no mysterious surges coming from the other vehicle unless the battery cables are disconnected, in which case the capacitance of the battery is removed and the charging vehicle's alternator can momentarily spike above 14.4 volts, but this spike is so brief that it is unlikely to affect the dead vehicles ECU

What frequently happens though, when jumping a dead vehicle, is that the cables can be applied in reverse without notice. This CAN do harm to the ECU.

Another funny thing that can happen is that when one tries to operate the ECU in a vehicle without adequate voltage and or amperage, the ECU can get strange fault codes. This is not a 'Fried" ECU, it has just had some of its RAM or flash info corrupted and has to be reflashed. You can observe the same effect by trying to operate your laptop computer with the low voltage safety shutdown feature removed, or by repeatedly shutting the computer down during boot up.

The order in which the cables are connected is also immaterial with a sealed battery such as the Redtop. Vented lead acid batteries should ALWAYS have the cable connected to the POSITIVE terminal first and then the negative cable attached to a point somewhere on the frame of the vehicle where sparks can't ignite the hydrogen around the vents of the battery. The possibility of this happening is remote but real.

Welding on a vehicle without the battery disconnected will not cause the airbag to deploy.

Batteries placed on concrete will not discharge at a faster rate than one placed on wood either.

_________________
Manure green 2005 CRD sport4x4, GDE Hot tune, Cat Gut, OE skids, Draw tight hitch, Duramax lift pump, 160K on multiple varieties of fuel, XM radio, Escort live with Redline, fog light mod, GPS, Icom IC7000 all band radio call sign KC9QPF, Grabber AT2s on Soft 8s, FIA grill blanket.

Batteries placed on concrete will not discharge at a faster rate than one placed on wood either.[/quote]

so if i put my battery on wood on my concrete floor ;;;
does it loose its charge twice as fast??????????

so if i put my battery on wood on my concrete floor ;;;
does it loose its charge twice as fast??????????[/quote]

LOL, no. here is why.... http://www.thebatteryterminal.com/TechT ... ncrete.htm

_________________
Manure green 2005 CRD sport4x4, GDE Hot tune, Cat Gut, OE skids, Draw tight hitch, Duramax lift pump, 160K on multiple varieties of fuel, XM radio, Escort live with Redline, fog light mod, GPS, Icom IC7000 all band radio call sign KC9QPF, Grabber AT2s on Soft 8s, FIA grill blanket.

Not totally false,welding can fry a PCM/BCM and can cause the SRS CPU to fry which can pop the airbags. Seen it happen at the bodyshop I worked at(not to me,my buddy about crapped his pants though),it can happen.

Again, this is a myth. there is a common expression used in the scientific world which states that "correlation is not causation" Just because it may have happened while your friend was welding on the vehicle does not mean that welding was the cause.

Here is the reason why I state boldly that it is a myth.
An airbag module consists of 4 major components, each one a safety lockout to prevent accidental deployment.

Safety element #1: The Airbag Electronic Control Module. This is the Brain of the airbag system. It becomes activated when ignition power is applied and reviews other other onboard systems such as the anti lock-break system, traction control etc... This is the only component in the system which could conceivably be affected by stray voltage. If all is well it will allow the second safety element to become energized

Safety element #2: The Energy Reserve Module is a simple capacitor which stores about 35 volts which is enough to activate the accelerant for the airbag. In the event of battery disconnection during a crash they can still supply current to the airbag (Contrary to popular belief, they can store a charge for much longer than the 15 minutes recommended by myth mongers after disconnecting the battery). In order for the 35 volts of juice to get to the accelerant it has to pass through the third safety feature.

Safety element #3: The arming sensor; In the event of a crash, the arming sensor (usually located in the passenger compartment) creates one half of a circuit from one side of the ERM to the accelerant, but still needs to have a ground source, which is the fourth safety element.

Safety element #4: The discrimination sensors are usually placed at front and rear of the vehicle. One or both can complete the ground circuit for airbag deployment.

The arming and discrimination sensors are the actual crash sensors and are completely mechanical in function. They each consist of a gold plated steel ball which is held in place by a strong magnet. When a forceful enough impact is encountered the ball flies forward to complete the electrical path for airbag deployment. They cannot in any way be triggered by an external electrical current (assuming that one could even escape from a welder.)

During the initial systems check, if the Airbag Electronic Control Module senses a closed circuit in any of the system's elements, It will throw a fault code and not initialize the ERM.

So, do you see how airbag activation by a welder is just a myth. I too have had the airbags spontaniously deploy during work on a Chevy Camaro when I worked in a body shop in my younger days, but there was physical damage to the system. The vehicle had been struck in the right A pillar and I was dismantaling it for a clip job. The nearest that I can figure is that damage to the fire wall had caused a short in both the A and B sides of the energizer circuit and I somehow compleated the circuit. Interestingly, the battery was removed from the vehicle and it had been sitting for a couple of days in my work bay. Crap your pants is an understatement.

_________________
Manure green 2005 CRD sport4x4, GDE Hot tune, Cat Gut, OE skids, Draw tight hitch, Duramax lift pump, 160K on multiple varieties of fuel, XM radio, Escort live with Redline, fog light mod, GPS, Icom IC7000 all band radio call sign KC9QPF, Grabber AT2s on Soft 8s, FIA grill blanket.

Yeah guess you haven't seen the printed materials for "proper" welding on GM,Ford,and Chrysler vehicles,all state you must disconnect the battery and turn the headlights on after the battery is disconnected to discharge any and all capacitors to prevent SRS deployment.It's not a myth,not that it happens all the time but it still happens.


Oh and I don't know what SRS systems you are working on but all the GENI and GENII systems I've worked on(SRS certified for both GM and Chrysler) there are only the SRS CPU,airbags themself,clockspring,wiring,and up to 6 impact/G force sensors.There is no arming sensor and the capacitor is part of the SRS CPU,which is only good for 2 accidents but the SRS light will remain on after the first accident(airbag deployment).

I think it's evident that you are posting what you believe to be true, but unfortunately it's wrong on so many levels. It might be more helpful to post your statements as an opinion, rather than hard facts. This would avoid misleading those who really don't know to adopt practices that will eventually damage their vehicles electronics. When two alternators are connected in parallel to the same electrical system, without regulation coordination, spikes of short duration (as seen on a scope) that can reach over a hundred volts can be generated. These spikes can be present even on a single vehicle electrical system with bad electrical connections. While most of the time this can be safely handled by the vehicles components, the semiconductor junctions in the electronics on the vehicle are weakened by these spikes and eventually damaged if they carry enough power. Practices that encourages this kind of surge related spikes is playing Russian roulette with a vehicles electronics. For some background, read General Electrics white paper on their MOV series of surge protectors and their studies on spikes on commercial power lines. A surge spike is just as damaging on a DC system as an AC system.

If you just stated it was your opinion rather than hard absolute "there are no mysterious surges" style statements, it might be less misleading for those who don't actually know better.

_________________
2005 LTD CRD RB1 NAV/Htd Leather seats/Amsoil EA filters
SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
Fuel cooler/Lift Pump/10um Pri/Racor R490 2um Sec Fuel Filters
IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
Yeti Hot Tune/Odessey 65/Samco's/Michelin Defenders

Ok - for the life of me, I couldn't see it yesterday (dyslexia), but it sticks out like a sore thumb, today, and I do see cause for constipation......er, consternation - so, my bad, and apologies to those whose KJ crashed and burned due to my typo:

I always connect the positive(+) battery cable first, whether replacing cables, replacing battery(s), charging, or jumping: positive(+) on, first - I always disconnect the negative(-) cable first when replacing cables, replacing battery(s), charging, or jumping - negative(-) off, first

Scenario: connect the negative(-) cable first, then the positive(+) cable - start the vehicle, remove the positive(+) cable, which gets caught in the now-moving belt or fan, or snags on some engine component, falls down on various grounded engine component(s), drags across the cast-aluminum\magnesium alloy valve cover(s), 1200 + 1200 cold-cranking amps of dual Diesel battery power provides exciting electro\pyrotechnics display as clamp-contact thrashes about amongst those grounded items, blowing a hole in the valve-cover, oily blow-by under crankcase pressure streams forth, immediately igniting - screams of "Kill it!!! Kill the engine!!!" masked by the general mechanical noises and roaring flames, now you've added a powerful blowtorch to the gala, melting wires, igniting old fuel- and oil-spills, burning hood insulation, second blowtorch ignites as plastic oil-fill cap melts and burns - in general, a very merry conflagration and worthy candidate for the six o'clock news

Surprise, shock and dismay on vehicle owner's face as his ride consumes itself before his very eyes: priceless

There may be other valid reasons to adopt the positive(+)-on negative(-)-off connection procedures, but arc-prevention is the most important

Needles to say, I never let anyone handle my jumper cables, particularly when either of my Diesel trucks are involved as donors

(Insert pre-requisite token precautionary note here:)
I've edited that initial post to preclude initial technical confusion for future readers......................

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

Well with a potentially fried ECU according to the dealer and a second diagnosis coming up shortly, i'd like to believe what i've read from some of the posters and some not, those that could cost me bucks for a new ECU.

_________________
06 CRD LTD ( Euro )

I remember reading an account that mentioned a jump starting technique practiced in less developed countries when jumper cables were not available: simply remove the good battery from its vehicle; take it over to the vehicle with the dead battery; then invert the good battery and lower it so that its terminals contact the dead battery's terminals; an assistant then cranks the engine.

I'm not sure whether this technique was actually practiced, or was added to the narrative for effect.

Needless to say, I'm not suggesting that anyone try it.

Are you serious? "Proper" instructions from the same folks who tell you point blank to use "only" GM, Ford or Chrysler replacement parts on their vehicles? The same folks who say not to use a cellphone while pumping gas into their vehicle? What is the max fording depth which they tell you NOT to exceed for your vehicle? What is their position on replacing the OE bumpers with aftermarket, non NTSB approved bumpers? Are these "Proper" instructions coming from the same group of lawyers who authoritatively assure us that there is no problem with our torque converters, or that our suction based fuel supply system has no design flaws? FYI, headlights cannot EVER discharge the SRS capacitor. They are completely separate circuits with no physical or electrical link. The capacitor charge cannot flow backwards through the AECM or it would fry it. Trace the circuit and be edified.




I too have been certified in SRS repair and replacement when working for the Herb Addcox Chevrolet Body Shop. Certification means very little. It indicates that you have have the ability to use a GM scan tool to identify what is causing the SRS module to set a trouble code, and either fix the connexion or replace whatever module is bad. Most Gen1 systems in American autos and all Gen2 contain the arming sensor and capacitor within the airbag ECM box itself. The description I gave earlier with 3 crash sensors was the basic elemental description of how a system works. Most modern systems with side impact bags can have 8 or more sensors but each directional cluster functions in the same way as previously described. Again there is NO way to electrically trigger the mechanical shock sensors with stray voltage, It is absolutely, positively, definitely and without doubt, impossible. The ONLY path that juice can follow to get from the Capacitor to the accelerant is through these crash sensors. Some VERY basic info can be found here http://www.auto-repair-help.com/automot ... air_bags.p



If you have been sending cars out the shop door with the SRS light on after a crash, you are endangering lives. The airbag WILL NOT deploy if the light is on. Contrary to what your GM, Chrysler, or Ford FSM will tell you(of course they tell you that it is a one time use item, they want to sell you a new one). the AECM unit can be reused indefinitely. I used to send them out to a company similar to this one... http://www.myairbags.com/?gclid=COijuMn ... gwod-xUuEA until we got a hand held unit which would reset them in the vehicle.

But all of this strays from the initial topic. There is no such thing as stray voltage. Electricity is not a mystery, although there is a lot of superstition surrounding it. Electricity can only flow from point A to point B by the shortest path available, or the path of least resistance. The electronic components in a vehicle's computers are completely grounded and even isolated from the rest of the vehicle. If this were not the case you would fry the computer every time a 50000 volt static spark jumped from your fingertip to your door handle.

I'm not posting this info just for argument's sake or for my own ego. I just have a thing against misinformation, and do not think that superstitions should be propagated.

_________________
Manure green 2005 CRD sport4x4, GDE Hot tune, Cat Gut, OE skids, Draw tight hitch, Duramax lift pump, 160K on multiple varieties of fuel, XM radio, Escort live with Redline, fog light mod, GPS, Icom IC7000 all band radio call sign KC9QPF, Grabber AT2s on Soft 8s, FIA grill blanket.

NC your feedback is appreciated, in my instance the donor battery was connected to my battery via a jumper cable and the donor vehicle was not running when i cranked my CRD. Once startd i removed the jumper cables from my battery and i'm not sure if i removed the negative or the positive cable first.

I noticed immediately that the CRD had thrown an error code which upon returning home was confirmed on the scanner to be a P0610. This code i was unable to clear. A day later i realised that my lift pump was not working and i checked the fuse box and found a blown fuel pump fuse which i replaced. I then checked the status of the fuel pump and that was blown to which i removed.

Went to the dealer and they confirmed code P0610 and that they were unable to clear it. They said i need a new ECU following the supposed voltage spike.

Is there no ECU protection against voltage spikes like a fuse or relay or anything.

I sent Inmotion an e-mail yesterday concerning my ECU and error code P0610 which is a vehicle coding error. They suggested that i get a second opinion on the blown ECU before i go ahead and replace it.

Those are the events leading to my code P0610. Now that i think of it, my CRD cranked over twice that morning i attempted to start her. The battery was not flat flat because the instrument cluster was fully lit up but she would not crank. I'm not sure if i left an interior light on during the night but it was strange for her not to crank as usual as i only replaced the battery about six months ago. I had also wire my fuel pump directly to the relay in the fuse box and earthed to the same earth that the ECU is using so i'm not sure if that may have done any damage when the fuel pump blew.

_________________
06 CRD LTD ( Euro )

static charge equalization\dissipation

circuit continuity

infinity

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

Fuses and Relays don't provide protection against voltage spikes. Fuses are designed to limit current flow, hence the ratings. Any electronic device, including automotive ECM's, TCM's. BCM,s and other devices could be designed to protect against reverse polarity, voltage spikes and electrical noise. The fact that they don't have bullet proof surge protection built in means your knowledge and common sense practices are your only defense.

_________________
2005 LTD CRD RB1 NAV/Htd Leather seats/Amsoil EA filters
SunCoast Mega Trans & Billet TC/PML pan/Aux cooler
Fuel cooler/Lift Pump/10um Pri/Racor R490 2um Sec Fuel Filters
IronMan Lift/Shocks/Provent/Moog ball joints/ V6 Airbox/Fan/Hayden
Cobalt Boost/EGT/Oil/Trans/Volt gauges/Aeroturbine 2525
Yeti Hot Tune/Odessey 65/Samco's/Michelin Defenders

I too fell victim to the cheesy Chrysler Red Top battery and she wouldn’t start no more. I put in a new Optima Red Top, starts just fine but this time the CEL light was on.
Scanned it and there were about 6 codes. I just cleared them all and none have come back. I figure it was low voltage and it tripped all kinds of pissed off sensors.
One fact is for sure: Computers don’t like low voltages!