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104,000 pain free miles - do I need a timing belt
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Author:  fatweasel [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  104,000 pain free miles - do I need a timing belt
No real maintenance other than regualr oil changes.

I think the service schedule recommends a timing belt at 100k?

Has anyone replaced one yet.

Thanks
Author:  retmil46 [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:16 am ]
Post subject: 
Of all the maintenance items listed on the OEM's recommended schedule, the one I would adhere to religiously is that for changing out the timing belt.

If that timing belt lets go, even with the features that VM Motori built into this engine for such an occurrence, you'd be looking at a repair bill totaling multiples of four figures - depending on the circumstances and the damage, it could very easily require replacement of the engine altogether. Might end up being easier and cheaper to replace the engine anyway if this did occur.

This is one item on ANY diesel, whether they use a timing belt or chain, that you don't want to take a chance on.
Author:  geordi [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:31 am ]
Post subject: 
The replacement of the timing belt is a PITA, sure. But having to rebuild the engine is worse.

Just find a guru who knows what he's doing on these, and you will be SHOCKED at how fast that belt will fly off the engine. I would also look into exactly what parts they suggest to also change out at the same time.

VW "suggests" (which means NO dealer will offer unless you fight for it) the replacement of all the rollers (which gives you new bearings) and the idler pulley, as well as the water pump. I had mine done on the Jetta TDI, and a dealer charged me $900 for the whole job, and I had to REALLY fight to get them to replace the bearings and the extra idler pulleys.

The second time I had the belt off (removing the injection pump for an internal seal rebuild) I replaced the belt too, and the guru that pulled it had it off in about 15 minutes, and only charged me $300 to R&R the belt and pump. It's cheap insurance, seriously.

Does anyone have a list of VM Motori's suggested replacement schedule for the rest of the associated parts? Are there multiple rollers in our system too that should be swapped out?

How about a list of gurus that know lots about this engine, and could do the job for a reasonable fee? I don't think ANY of us want a MOPAR monkey to touch these.
Author:  tonycrd [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
So sorry to not live in the US. I'd do yours for free.

There's no milage for the two idler wheels and tensioner, just change them out when you do your beltswap.( I did mine at 100k Km/ 65k Miles and found that my tensioner was worn out already.)

Better save then sorry. :D

Check your waterpump for funny sounds / bearing play / leaks when you have the belt off rather then flatout replacing it, they wanted $351 for it over here! ( yep, just the part)

Side note: The thing that holds the fan is not the waterpump.

Don't let the stealer fool you, the grille and the rad's don't have to come out ( that's the story they tell here to push the price up).

Just loosen the mechanical fan, take it out with the radiator funnel (the black plastic thing which has 'caution fan' on it). Voila, now you can reach the crankshaft pulley bolts.

If you have never ever changed a distribution belt I wouldn't start learning with our VM. It's quite a hassle to get the new one back on with everything lined up correctly (and without the special tools the stealer uses and I do not own).

If you do decide to DIY get a copy of the CRD FSM, thanks to Sir Sam you can get it herehttp://colorado4wheel.com/allmanuals/Jeep/KJ/

Image
Author:  Bob V [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Tony, how did you hold the cams in position while changing the belt? I have read through the FSM a little and just wondered just how many of the tools where really necessary. If the crank and the cams do not move it shouldn't be a problem
Author:  irunmiles [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:19 am ]
Post subject: 
I have 120K miles, so I'm going to start to price the timing belt replacement job at a couple of local stealers. From reading posts, it sounds like I should replace the timing belt, idler pulleys (2), tensioner, water pump, and accessory drive belt. Do I have this correct, and should I add anything else to this list? Can somebody supply the correct part numbers?
Author:  tonycrd [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Bob V wrote:
Tony, how did you hold the cams in position while changing the belt? I have read through the FSM a little and just wondered just how many of the tools where really necessary. If the crank and the cams do not move it shouldn't be a problem


For a belt change you don't need any of those special tools.

What I did was mark the opposite cam gear teeth with a piece of chalk so they would sit exactly as they were before. No worries, they do not move (much) by themselves.

I blocked the crankshaft with (irc) an 8mm drill. There's a hole in the engine block (right /turbo side) where that goes in. Keep pressure on the drill, now turn the engine by hand and you will feel it slide in a hole in the flywheel.

Now you have the crank blocked.

Don't forget to take it out :wink:
Author:  tonycrd [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:16 am ]
Post subject: 
irunmiles wrote:
I have 120K miles, so I'm going to start to price the timing belt replacement job at a couple of local stealers. From reading posts, it sounds like I should replace the timing belt, idler pulleys (2), tensioner, water pump, and accessory drive belt. Do I have this correct, and should I add anything else to this list? Can somebody supply the correct part numbers?


You could have looked it up yourself you lazy bum (j/k) :D

http://colorado4wheel.com/allmanuals/Jeep/KJ/05kj_PARTS_FICHE.pdf

Anyway.... I did it for you:

Waterpump 05142985AA
Idler wheels 05142573AA
Tensioner 05142798AA
Timing belt 05142579AA
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:30 am ]
Post subject: 
Wow, you like to live dangerlessly. Please turn the engine 90 degree off tdc so valves can not hit the pistons. See warning in service manual
Author:  tonycrd [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
BlackLibertyCRD wrote:
Wow, you like to live dangerlessly. Please turn the engine 90 degree off tdc so valves can not hit the pistons. See warning in service manual

According to the FSM you need to loosen up the cam gears. Before you do that turn the crank 90º, yes you are right.

As long as I do not turn the crank (which is blocked with a drill so cannot turn anyway) and I do not rotate the camshafts....nothing is going to happen.

Since I chalked up the camgears I got them back in their earlier position after tensioning the new belt. If VM did a good job when they build my engine the cam timing should still be 100% correct.

Funny story I once heard:

'You know what is the quickest way to change a timing belt? Cut it in halve lenghtwise.'

Say what? :shock:

'We had to do a belt change on a Ferrari, the FSM already told us that we needed to take the complete engine out of the car. Thinking that was way to much work we took the covers off and the sparkplugs out, rotated the engine by hand while one of us held a knife against the belt, cutting it in halve. Then we pushed the new one on halfway and cut the old one. Pushed the new one on all the way and we were done in under 2 hours'

Now don't try this at home kids! :D
Author:  Joe Romas [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
tonycrd wrote:
You know what is the quickest way to change a timing belt? Cut it in halve lenghtwise.'

Say what? :shock:

'We had to do a belt change on a Ferrari, the FSM already told us that we needed to take the complete engine out of the car. Thinking that was way to much work we took the covers off and the sparkplugs out, rotated the engine by hand while one of us held a knife against the belt, cutting it in halve. Then we pushed the new one on halfway and cut the old one. Pushed the new one on all the way and we were done in under 2 hours'

Now don't try this at home kids! :D


Very clever :D If I ever get a Ferrari I'll remember that :roll:
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
tonycrd wrote:
BlackLibertyCRD wrote:
Wow, you like to live dangerlessly. Please turn the engine 90 degree off tdc so valves can not hit the pistons. See warning in service manual

According to the FSM you need to loosen up the cam gears. Before you do that turn the crank 90º, yes you are right.

As long as I do not turn the crank (which is blocked with a drill so cannot turn anyway) and I do not rotate the camshafts....nothing is going to happen.

Since I chalked up the camgears I got them back in their earlier position after tensioning the new belt. If VM did a good job when they build my engine the cam timing should still be 100% correct.

Funny story I once heard:

'You know what is the quickest way to change a timing belt? Cut it in halve lenghtwise.'

Say what? :shock:

'We had to do a belt change on a Ferrari, the FSM already told us that we needed to take the complete engine out of the car. Thinking that was way to much work we took the covers off and the sparkplugs out, rotated the engine by hand while one of us held a knife against the belt, cutting it in halve. Then we pushed the new one on halfway and cut the old one. Pushed the new one on all the way and we were done in under 2 hours'

Now don't try this at home kids! :D


Below is what is in the service manual, you only need to remove the cam gears if your removing the inner timer cover. Since the outer cover is only removed cam gears don.t get removed. After reading how you work on vehicles I would never let you touch mine let alone take your advice.

TENSIONER AND PULLEY-TIMING BELT AND CHAIN
REMOVAL
NOTE: Before servicing the timing belt, the engine
must be rotate to 90 degrees ATDC and alignment
pin VM.1089 installed (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/VALVE
TIMING - STANDARD PROCEDURE).
1. Disconnect negative battery cable.
2. Remove engine cover (Refer to 9 - ENGINE
COVER - REMOVAL).
3. Remove cooling fan and fan drive viscous clutch
assembly (Refer to 7 - COOLING/ENGINE/FAN
DRIVE VISCOUS CLUTCH - REMOVAL).
4. Remove accessory drive belt (Refer to 7 - COOLING/
ACCESSORY DRIVE/DRIVE BELTS -
REMOVAL).
5. Remove cooling fan support (Refer to 7 - COOLING/
ENGINE/RADIATOR FAN - REMOVAL).
6. Remove vibration damper (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/
ENGINE BLOCK/VIBRATION DAMPER -
REMOVAL).
7. Remove the power steering pump pulley.
8. Remove timing belt outer cover (Refer to 9 -
ENGINE/VALVE TIMING/TIMING BELT / CHAIN COVER(S) - REMOVAL).
9. Loosen and remove timing belt tensioner.


INSTALLATION
NOTE: DO NOT remove the timing belt from the
package until it’s ready to be installed. DO NOT
expose timing belt to oil, grease or water contamination.
DO NOT crimp belt at a sharp angle. DO
NOT clean belt, pulleys or tensioner with solvent.
Check that pulleys and bearings are not seized or
damage before installing belt.
1. Install timing belt tensioner and retaining bolt.
2. Adjust timing belt tensioner (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/
VALVE TIMING/TMNG BELT/CHAIN
TENSIONER&PULLEY - ADJUSTMENTS).
3. Install timing belt outer cover (Refer to 9 -
ENGINE/VALVE TIMING/TIMING BELT / CHAIN
COVER(S) - INSTALLATION).
4. Install vibration damper (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/ENGINE
BLOCK/VIBRATION DAMPER - INSTALLATION).
5. Install the power steering pump pulley.
6. Install cooling fan support (Refer to 7 - COOLING/
ENGINE/RADIATOR FAN - INSTALLATION).
7. Install accessory drive belt (Refer to 7 - COOLING/ACCESSORY DRIVE/DRIVE BELTS - INSTALLATION).
8. Install cooling fan and fan drive viscous clutch assembly (Refer to 7 - COOLING/ENGINE/FAN DRIVE VISCOUS
CLUTCH - INSTALLATION).
9. Install engine cover (Refer to 9 - ENGINE COVER - INSTALLATION).
Author:  warp2diesel [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  How I plan to make my cam holder pins
When the time comes around for me, I will go to Harbor Freight and buy a Virgin set of Metric Drills that have not seen a chuck yet. With a rag wrapped around the cutting edges and flutes, I will probe the holes with the shanks and determine the size of the holes in the head and the cam. Also I will use my thumb and a maker to see how deep the holes go and how long I will have to make the shoulder steps. Next record the dimensions on a piece of paper and turn out the alignment pins I need in my Lathe from mild steel.

Finally, draw them up in CAD and post them for L.O.S.T.

Been there done that more than once.
Author:  onthehunt [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:08 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Next record the dimensions on a piece of paper and turn out the alignment pins I need in my Lathe from mild steel.

Finally, draw them up in CAD and post them for L.O.S.T.



Or I could just send you the VM tool to measure and share.
Author:  tonycrd [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:31 am ]
Post subject: 
BlackLibertyCRD wrote:
After reading how you work on vehicles I would never let you touch mine let alone take your advice.


Just telling how I did mine, also said that if you've never done one you'd better not do it yourself.

BOB is a high skilled mechanic, he knows what I am talking about.

And you got the wrong chapter of the FSM there, that one deals with the tensioner only. :D
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:20 am ]
Post subject: 
tonycrd wrote:
BlackLibertyCRD wrote:
After reading how you work on vehicles I would never let you touch mine let alone take your advice.

BOB is a high skilled mechanic, he knows what I am talking about.

And you got the wrong chapter of the FSM there, that one deals with the tensioner only. :D


TENSIONER AND PULLEY-TIMING BELT AND CHAIN
REMOVAL

Good catch and as you can see that this is writen with chapters and sub chapters for thoses that know that removing and installing the belt is part of removing the tensional. Your recommendation to replace the tensional, pulleys and water pump is a great idea and I will keep that in mind when I need to do my belt.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Shipping to our friends over seas is cashy
onthehunt wrote:
Quote:
Next record the dimensions on a piece of paper and turn out the alignment pins I need in my Lathe from mild steel.

Finally, draw them up in CAD and post them for L.O.S.T.



Or I could just send you the VM tool to measure and share.


Metric drills, paper and machine tools are already there.

Thanks for the offer.
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shipping to our friends over seas is cashy
warp2diesel wrote:
Metric drills, paper and machine tools are already there.

Thanks for the offer.


It's would be very nice of you to take pictures of the location of the crank and cam plugs and post metric sizes so all will know. Please :D
Author:  irunmiles [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:24 am ]
Post subject: 
I did some parts pricing on wholesalemopar for the timing belt replacement and water pump:

Tensioner 5142798AA $63.89
Idler Pulley (2) 5142573AA $105.02
Timing Belt 5142579AA $137.94
Timing Cover Gasket 5066921AA $12.52

Water Pump 5093911AB $166.98
Gasket 4864575 $2.30
O Ring 5159019AA $4.11

Accessory Drive Belt 5072437AC $91.33

Parts Total $584.09

There have been recommendations to replace the water pump and timing belt together. At $175 just for parts, I'm wondering why I should replace the water pump which is showing no signs of problems. Its exterior to the timing belt, so I don't believe its an access problem. I haven't been reading about water pump failures, and if it were to fail it doesn't have the grave consequences of a timing belt failure.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:35 am ]
Post subject: 
irunmiles wrote:
I did some parts pricing on wholesalemopar for the timing belt replacement and water pump:
Water Pump 5093911AB $166.98
Gasket 4864575 $2.30
O Ring 5159019AA $4.11

There have been recommendations to replace the water pump and timing belt together. At $175 just for parts, I'm wondering why I should replace the water pump which is showing no signs of problems. Its exterior to the timing belt, so I don't believe its an access problem. I haven't been reading about water pump failures, and if it were to fail it doesn't have the grave consequences of a timing belt failure.


Water pumps are funny things. When I replaced the timing belt on the wife's 93 VW I5 (inline 5 cylinder) at 80k miles I replaced the water pump with a brand new one. Recently at 120kmiles I started loosing coolant :cry: The water pump was leaking :oops: I've been replacing timing belts for the last 30 years and that van is by far the worse :wink:

So in a nutshell, now is not the time to cheap out :o
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