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| Author: | gmctd [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Stuff'n'such |
Went up to Wallyworld early this a.m., ambient temps in upper 30's, to get prescription refills (FYI: new Medicare part B rules allow providers to pick up dental, optical, and prescriptions with 0 copay for generics: whooppee!!!!!!) - ennyhoo, observing the Pricol instrumentation, as is my wont, noticed ~450* EGT in DRIVE at stoplites, dropping to ~390* in Neutral - now, for them as cain't interpolate, lower EGT = less BTU = less fuel consumed = mo' bettah fuel economy - I s'pect that the 390* figure, still a little high, is resulted from the extra BTU's required by the viscous cabin-heater workin' it's tail off, tryin' ta keep me warm - normal EGT's at idle in Neutral would be ~250* on a cold morn such as this - so, shift'em if ya got'em, fer some easy cash in yer pocket(s) - (in addition to that as gleaned from new Medicare Part B rules!) Also, during some recent testing, noticed the lil mule was really breathing heavy, kicking out some serious exhaust fumes, blue in hue, noxious of odor - panic'y thoughts of 'whoa, boy, you 'bout to give up the ghost, on me?' running thru my mind, I feverishly began to look about the engine bay, hoping for some miraculous intervention, some loose wire, unplugged plug, disconnected connector, etc - had just installed the V6 airbox\snorkle for some airflow comparisons, with new DCJ air filter, so I knew that wasn't plugged - fuel filter was recently new - always shop at Diesel stations with heavy traffic to ensure no stale, moldy fuel - whut it could be? - then, suddenly, whilst I was headin' around to the pilot's console with it's full compliment of instrumentation, that little light of dawning comprehension went on in my head - sure enuff (insert sigh of intense relief, here!), there was the culpable party: the EDGE Trail module has a 3-position switch, 3\DOWN is additional fuel, 2\CENTER is module off, normal oem fuel, 1\UP is pedal to the metal balls to the wall full exhiliaration fuel - the offending switch was in the DOWN position, accidentally nudged thereunto prolly during insertion of the IGN key into the switch - the switched-in extra fuel, in combination with the INMOTION Stage II tune, could have resulted in a not very pretty scenario involving an old man with a weak heart - needles to say, current plans are to rotate that switch 90*, such that 1\LEFT is full blow, 2\Center is normal, 3\RIGHT is jus' a little bit mo' - keeping in mind the previous mishap, p'raps that configuration will be somewhat less conducive to repeat high blood-pressure events |
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| Author: | truckbouy2 [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
99.5% of the time it's PILOT error..... Planes, trains, cars, trucks, anything that spins, cuts, flames, explodes, or sometimes just sits there....No matter how you explain it to the wife or judge. It's PILOT error........ |
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| Author: | tonycrd [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:16 pm ] |
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I'm sorry but I have no idea what this (op) post is about? Maybe I just don't read as fast as GMCTD can type? |
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| Author: | truckbouy2 [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:45 pm ] |
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tony.... Temperature, prescription refills, medicare part b, copay, egt's, heavy breathing, and relocation of the zoom zoom switch.... |
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| Author: | ATXKJ [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I'm still amazed that he has the Edge and Inmotion stacked, even with the Edge normally turned off. it sure seems that the possibility of melted pistons is high. |
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| Author: | gmctd [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
The module would be 'stacked' only in positions 1 and 3 - position 2 is OFF, or disabled - an accidental nudge engaged warp speed, but the KJ was parked, doing some in-situ testing, so it merely fumigated the area for winter mosquitos |
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| Author: | nursecosmo [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
GM's smoking episode is an excellent example of how a computer regulated VGT turbocharged diesel is very different in operation from a wastegated turbodiesel. In a conventional wastegated engine if more fuel is added (Edge trail in max setting) the extra fuel causes more turbine boost, which adds more air, which burns the fuel more completely, which leads to clean exhaust, which also leads to increasing RPMs of the engine. In a conventional wastegated turbodiesel more fuel always equals more boost and more RPM. In a diesel with computer controlled VGT, the nozzle vane angle (i.e. boost pressure) is controlled solely by the ECU. The EDGE alters the reading from the rail pressure sensor which tricks the ECU into raising the rail pressure. The problem with this is that the ECU still sees the TPS signal as being at zero degrees, so will keep the turbine nozzles at a low AOI in order to try and keep boost at as close to 0 PSI as possible, which is where it is supposed to be idle. Because there is a mismatch between the airflow and the amount of fuel being injected, it makes a nice rich colored and fine smelling smoke. This phenomenon also leads me to believe that the factory programed air/fuel ratios can be improved upon for better economy. |
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| Author: | gmctd [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
One slight fault with that logic sequence: ECM has no way to measure the actual fuelrate input, not even one O2 sensor in the loop (some engines have 4-5!) - what will be observed with a scanner is ECM's estimated fuelrate, based on operating conditions at that instant - in this case, the fuelrate was offset by the EDGE Trail module, such that, even tho the indicated fuelrate was ~10mm3, actual fuelrate was greater, thus the resemblance to a Navy smog-layer Also, few Diesel engines have enuff exhaust energy at idle to spool-up the turbo enuff to make Boost - takes a lot of power to compress large volumes of air - even under normal conditions at high altitudes, for which the turbocharger was developed, ECM just reduces fuel based on Barometric pressure, sensed by the pressure sensor in the airbox and compared to the MAP sensor in the intake manifold - with artificially increased fuelrates at idle, the engine just blows raw fuel vapors, usually white to blue, as idle combustion temps are not high enuff to do black smoke - proof: idle EGT's of ~250-295* - however (and there's always a however!), if turbocharger duty-cycle is monitored at high altitudes, it may be noted that even the idle %age is much greater than for us flatlanders, which allows for much quicker spool-up much earlier as exhaust energy increases with rpm and load This failure was due to gross pilot error, as previously hinted upon (dratted castignations!), for which ECM had no provisional procedures - sorta like getting a woman drunk to have your way with her, where she's too sozzled to note that her CHECK INHIBITIONS SOON indicator is flashing................ |
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| Author: | UFO [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
LOL! "CHECK INHIBITIONS SOON" I don't care if I understand what you'se talkin' about, it sure is funny! |
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| Author: | nursecosmo [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
gmctd wrote: One slight fault with that logic sequence: ECM has no way to measure the actual fuelrate input, not even one O2 sensor in the loop (some engines have 4-5!) - what will be observed with a scanner is ECM's estimated fuelrate, based on operating conditions at that instant - in this case, the fuelrate was offset by the EDGE Trail module, such that, even tho the indicated fuelrate was ~10mm3, actual fuelrate was greater, thus the resemblance to a Navy smog-layer How is that a fault? That is exactly what I was illustrating. The computer can only monitor "perceived" rail pressure and MAP VS MAF (unless the MAF has been disabled with an ORM or SEGR). The Computer "Thought" that it was putting out the correct amount of fuel for a clean idle, but was in fact not because it was deceived by the EDGE changing the rail pressure signal. gmctd wrote: Also, few Diesel engines have enuff exhaust energy at idle to spool-up the turbo enuff to make Boost - takes a lot of power to compress large volumes of air - even under normal conditions at high altitudes, for which the turbocharger was developed, ECM just reduces fuel based on Barometric pressure, sensed by the pressure sensor in the airbox and compared to the MAP sensor in the intake manifold - with artificially increased fuelrates at idle, the engine just blows raw fuel vapors, usually white to blue, as idle combustion temps are not high enuff to do black smoke - proof: idle EGT's of ~250-295* - however (and there's always a however!), if turbocharger duty-cycle is monitored at high altitudes, it may be noted that even the idle %age is much greater than for us flatlanders, which allows for much quicker spool-up much earlier as exhaust energy increases with rpm and load
Yes exactly. In a conventional Turbodiesel, if the fuel rate is raised from 10mm3 to 12mm3, a small amount of boost will be generated to compensate for the increased fuel. That will result in an RPM increase from ~750 to ~1000 or so. In our CRD (which is far from conventional) the ECU wants the RPM to ALWAYS be at ~750 when the Throttle Position Sensor is at 0 degrees of depression. It accomplishes this by dropping the rail pressure to close the the lower acceptable pressure limit preset into the ECU's fueling map. If it starts sensing too high of an RPM it can drop the rail pressure to the lowest setting but can only go so far based on the pre-programed fuel map (injector timing and pulse width is already at it's narrowest setting) . The other thing that is occurring is that ECU will only allow the turbine to compress a small amount of pressure, usually ~15psi absolute, and no more, based on the pressure map parameters programed into the computer to account for altitude, filter restriction etc... I think that your "operator error" was a great teaching tool to help others understand some of the basics of their CRD's operation. Every time I think about the complexity of modern diesel engines, I fall in love with my old 12 valve, P-pumped, 100% mechanical, Cumins powered Ram a little bit more. |
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| Author: | gmctd [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Yep, where the aerobic exerciser chamber is the brains behind the pump..................... |
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| Author: | MrMopar64 [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
nursecosmo wrote: gmctd wrote: One slight fault with that logic sequence: ECM has no way to measure the actual fuelrate input, not even one O2 sensor in the loop (some engines have 4-5!) - what will be observed with a scanner is ECM's estimated fuelrate, based on operating conditions at that instant - in this case, the fuelrate was offset by the EDGE Trail module, such that, even tho the indicated fuelrate was ~10mm3, actual fuelrate was greater, thus the resemblance to a Navy smog-layer How is that a fault? That is exactly what I was illustrating. The computer can only monitor "perceived" rail pressure and MAP VS MAF (unless the MAF has been disabled with an ORM or SEGR). The Computer "Thought" that it was putting out the correct amount of fuel for a clean idle, but was in fact not because it was deceived by the EDGE changing the rail pressure signal. gmctd wrote: Also, few Diesel engines have enuff exhaust energy at idle to spool-up the turbo enuff to make Boost - takes a lot of power to compress large volumes of air - even under normal conditions at high altitudes, for which the turbocharger was developed, ECM just reduces fuel based on Barometric pressure, sensed by the pressure sensor in the airbox and compared to the MAP sensor in the intake manifold - with artificially increased fuelrates at idle, the engine just blows raw fuel vapors, usually white to blue, as idle combustion temps are not high enuff to do black smoke - proof: idle EGT's of ~250-295* - however (and there's always a however!), if turbocharger duty-cycle is monitored at high altitudes, it may be noted that even the idle %age is much greater than for us flatlanders, which allows for much quicker spool-up much earlier as exhaust energy increases with rpm and load Yes exactly. In a conventional Turbodiesel, if the fuel rate is raised from 10mm3 to 12mm3, a small amount of boost will be generated to compensate for the increased fuel. That will result in an RPM increase from ~750 to ~1000 or so. In our CRD (which is far from conventional) the ECU wants the RPM to ALWAYS be at ~750 when the Throttle Position Sensor is at 0 degrees of depression. It accomplishes this by dropping the rail pressure to close the the lower acceptable pressure limit preset into the ECU's fueling map. If it starts sensing too high of an RPM it can drop the rail pressure to the lowest setting but can only go so far based on the pre-programed fuel map (injector timing and pulse width is already at it's narrowest setting) . The other thing that is occurring is that ECU will only allow the turbine to compress a small amount of pressure, usually ~15psi absolute, and no more, based on the pressure map parameters programed into the computer to account for altitude, filter restriction etc... I think that your "operator error" was a great teaching tool to help others understand some of the basics of their CRD's operation. Every time I think about the complexity of modern diesel engines, I fall in love with my old 12 valve, P-pumped, 100% mechanical, Cumins powered Ram a little bit more. I think that there are some misconceptions here, hopefully I'll try to explain it somewhat. The boost control is completely decoupled from the engine fueling situation. Obviously, with the vanes fully closed, there is only so much boost that can be made which is just like a fixed-geometry turbo. The boost is controlled by a setpoint map which uses various inputs to compute the desired pressure. For the low-idle scenario that you presented above, that's not entirely true. Lets say the KJ app has the 750rpm idle that you indicated. While rail pressure does play a lot only in terms of the energizing time of injection (rail pressure vs. desired fuel quantity = energizing time, or rail pressure vs. energizing time = desired fuel quantity, works both ways), the rail pressure isn't used for engine speed control. The actual rail pressure setpoint is important because it affects NVH-type things. In any case, generally a PID structure is employed to maintain closed loop control of the engine speed by varying the fuel input (energizing time). For increasing engine speed, fueling has everything to do with it not boost. when you push on the pedal, the fuel ramps up slowly, the increased fuel quantity creates more combustion pressure and the crankshaft speed accelerates. Obviously, too much fuel at a given time creates black smoke (more based off fresh air flow than pressure), so obviously the fuel can be limited at certain operating points so that no visible smoke is produced (or only faintly visible smoke). With regard to actual fuel rate, this value is actually very precise, thanks in part to the injector quantity adjustment code on the top of every injector and precise manufacturing tolerances in injector nozzles (EDM). The EDGE works easily because rail pressure and boost pressure are closed-loop controlled based on a setpoint value. If you trick the ECU into thinking that the values it sees are lower than they really are, then the governing will work to meet the setpoint but, if measuring the actual fluid medium pressure, it will be much higher. THis is why the engine smokes: energizing time is the same because ECU thinks the rail pressure is where it should be, but the actual rail pressure is much higher. with a given energizing time and a higher rail pressure, a higher fuel quantity is delivered. By applying the same principal with the boost, the vanes will be closed more to "meet the setpoint" while the actual value is higher. In theory, if you raise the boost enough with the increased fuel quantity it won't smoke (maybe a little because your timing isn't optimized for increased fuel delivery/power output) but in the lower load areas it's hard for the turbo to meet the setpoint and so the engine smokes. Especially in regions important for emissions where you'll find timing more retarded. |
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| Author: | nursecosmo [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
MrMopar64 wrote: I think that there are some misconceptions here, hopefully I'll try to explain it somewhat.
The boost control is completely decoupled from the engine fueling situation. Obviously, with the vanes fully closed, there is only so much boost that can be made which is just like a fixed-geometry turbo. The boost is controlled by a setpoint map which uses various inputs to compute the desired pressure. For the low-idle scenario that you presented above, that's not entirely true. Lets say the KJ app has the 750rpm idle that you indicated. While rail pressure does play a lot only in terms of the energizing time of injection (rail pressure vs. desired fuel quantity = energizing time, or rail pressure vs. energizing time = desired fuel quantity, works both ways), the rail pressure isn't used for engine speed control. The actual rail pressure setpoint is important because it affects NVH-type things. In any case, generally a PID structure is employed to maintain closed loop control of the engine speed by varying the fuel input (energizing time). For increasing engine speed, fueling has everything to do with it not boost. when you push on the pedal, the fuel ramps up slowly, the increased fuel quantity creates more combustion pressure and the crankshaft speed accelerates. Obviously, too much fuel at a given time creates black smoke (more based off fresh air flow than pressure), so obviously the fuel can be limited at certain operating points so that no visible smoke is produced (or only faintly visible smoke). With regard to actual fuel rate, this value is actually very precise, thanks in part to the injector quantity adjustment code on the top of every injector and precise manufacturing tolerances in injector nozzles (EDM). The EDGE works easily because rail pressure and boost pressure are closed-loop controlled based on a setpoint value. If you trick the ECU into thinking that the values it sees are lower than they really are, then the governing will work to meet the setpoint but, if measuring the actual fluid medium pressure, it will be much higher. THis is why the engine smokes: energizing time is the same because ECU thinks the rail pressure is where it should be, but the actual rail pressure is much higher. with a given energizing time and a higher rail pressure, a higher fuel quantity is delivered. By applying the same principal with the boost, the vanes will be closed more to "meet the setpoint" while the actual value is higher. In theory, if you raise the boost enough with the increased fuel quantity it won't smoke (maybe a little because your timing isn't optimized for increased fuel delivery/power output) but in the lower load areas it's hard for the turbo to meet the setpoint and so the engine smokes. Especially in regions important for emissions where you'll find timing more retarded. I can see how my idle control scenario could be perceived as a misconception. I was using the rail pressure half of the fuel control circuit to illustrate how the EDGE can alter fueling quantity at idle when the pulse width of the injectors is a known factor and assuming that pulse width was already at or near it's lowest mapped value (as you stated, rail pressure is indeed one half of the engine speed vs fueling equation) . The only thing which I would add to your process description is that the PID electronic structures for fueling and boost are not true PIDs in the classic sense, as their set points are not independent of each other and are indeed coupled by the main power map. They both have variable set point algorithms which are established by the main ECU power map and based on additional inputs such as the TPS sensor, ECT sensor, MAF sensor and IAT sensor but if the main ECU detects a mismatch between what it knows that the two set points should be, it will try to adjust one to jive with the other. If it can't achieve a match between the two, one of three codes will be set, Overboost, underboost, or TPS mismatch. The fueling and boost loops also have feed forward elements built in and set by the main ECM power map, which will account for anticipated variations in engine load such as the air conditioning compressor switching on and off or the EGR valve opening and closing (this is why there is very little or no change in RPM when the AC compressor comes on or the EGR valve opens even though one can hear the engine working harder). Man, do I wish I could still buy a simple, 100% mechanical new vehicle. I suddenly have the urge to rip the computer off of my Cannondale Jekyl. |
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| Author: | Uffe [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
In short: EDGE trail = more smoke. |
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| Author: | gmctd [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
In addendum - EDGE Trail, by itself = fast + haze INMOTION II = fast + haze EDGE Trail + INMOTION II = acrid fumes and smoke = misteak! |
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| Author: | grywlfbg [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Since we're talking about inmotion stuff here, I'd like to threadjack. I'd like to do an inmotion tune on my CRD to get a little more power when towing and some better mileage but I'm nervous of the stage II destroying my stock tranny. My wife treats the fuel pedal as an on/off switch so will a stage II vs stage I make any difference for tranny life? I change the tranny fluid every 30k to give it the best chance I can. I'm planning to ask the inmotion folks the same question but figured I'd ask the gurus here first. |
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| Author: | gmctd [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Suncoast first, then INMOTION: power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely - you won't be able to resist it......... |
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| Author: | BlackLibertyCRD [ Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:42 pm ] |
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gmctd wrote: In addendum -
EDGE Trail, by itself = fast + haze INMOTION II = fast + haze EDGE Trail + INMOTION II = acrid fumes and smoke = misteak! Note: To myself, I notta need em inmotion II wwhit a my chip |
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