LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Block heater with cold idle?

Ya'll always make me snicker

gmctd, I love you man

you've mentioned 3-4 times in other threads (i've been lurking here for years before i registered) this subject of CO. I appreciate your interest in our safty, but i'm not sucking on the end of my exhaust pipe (much to the dismay of my wife) if i were in a confined space (i.e not outside) I would think about it.

BVCRD, I though the vicious heater's btu (somehow, and i dont know why i think this) was not used to heat the block/coolant/whatever and was only used to heat up the heater core (again why do i think this? i swear i've read it on these forums somewhere).

nursecosmo, Is it a good idea to have a higher than required load on your alt? no, it's not a good idea. Here we agree. BUT

Amps = Watts/Volts
a=w/v

3.33.. Amps at 120v = 400 watt
33.3.. Amps at 12v = 400 watt
BUTT my inverter is only like 96% efficient at >90% load (said inverter is rated for 4k24/7/ or 6k for 3 hours). Xantrix pro watt 4000 (came from a motor home)
-33.3 + ((33.3*.94)-33.3)) = 34.9 Amps Witch is right above the capacity of said inverter

I wonder how much of this fuzzy math i messed up?

Letttts call it 35 amps DC. This will not fry my alt. (witch I Know is at least 100 amp, but i believe it to be more like 138)
Also we both know that the liberty is not actually at 12v, it's more like 14.5 unloaded idle.

not only that, BUT the ~5% of 33 ampers that is lost to heat from my inverter, HEATS up my cab (15 watts@12vdc) (the entire idea) also the Additional load on the engine produces more btu, into the cooling system (again, that's the goal here)

Coal Cracker, I agree with you = ) (sorta) If it helps, it helps. *shrug*

My initial question is if it were simply, less bad. Or not "less bad" than idling in the cold (for 8+ hours) I'm going to go with "who the hell cares" Because i'm not bringing my extension cord anyway!

Thanks for the conversation!

Silly me - and I tho't CO was produced at any rapid oxidation event, the longer the event the more the CO.................................. :shock:

Reason 18-wheelers get away with it is the path of the exhaust thru the vertical orientation of the tail-pipe(s), way up there in the open air, high above the truck - CO is a problem with all infernal combustion engines - your KJ tailpipe exits down at the rear of the vehicle, but still under the cabin area, where any slight tail-wind blows the effluent back under the cabin - if you've survived several in-KJ motor-idling sleeping events, stop by the temple and burn a couple candles for Buddha, which should enhance yer lucky streak

CO should never be dismissed as insignificant, even if you carry an exhaust snorkel that reaches way up above the roof

I believe that the block heater has a thermostat control. So if the engine is above the heater's temp, it won't be running anyway. No way to hurt a heating element by having it in hotter conditions, unless it isn't already designed to be in those conditions. Every single time the engine runs, that coil is in above-it's-own-limit conditions.

Logically, the coil cannot be harmed by plugging it in while the engine is already above it's upper cut-off limit. The coil simply won't run, and it couldn't add any heat to the coolant anyway.

As for the engine's "proper operating temperature" while idling... As long as your engine has a thermostat, it will ALWAYS be at the proper operating temp, or the thermostat will remain closed until the engine warms to that level. This has ZERO to do with the loading of the engine, it is a simple fact of combustion temperatures and engine / thermostat design. Unless the thermostat has failed open or has been removed, the engine simply cannot operate below it's operating range for long - it will eventually reach that range and stay there. Idling won't ever make it cool to unsafe (for the engine) levels unless you happen to be in the arctic.

Do you not have the entire grill blocked off? I would think that killing ALL the airflow would be a requirement in such temperatures for any diesel.

The viscous clutch heater helps the engine operate under a load, and directly transfer heat energy into the coolant to warm it up to operating temperature from a COLD engine that has been sitting overnight / for several hours in cold temps.

But the engine is also being AIR COOLED in this case - Block that front end! If you don't have a skid plate... Think about getting one, and line it with engine blanket. It isn't just for sound control, it also keeps the engine insulated.

Author:	CRDMiller [ Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:25 am ]
Post subject:	Block heater with cold idle?
So it's bad to idle your rig in the cold. What about idling your rig in the cold WHILE you have the block heater running off of an inverter? Less bad? I know it's only 400 watts but will it change anything? I ask because I plan (ed) to sleep in the crd while it was idling and run the ac or heater, if required. I would never do this in a gasser as the fuel rate/hour was simply to high. But the crd at .25 gal/hour, well that's downright low, hell I have a 8.1 vortec that idles at 1gal/h unloaded and a Onan 5.5k genset that idles at .7g/h unloaded.

Author:	gmctd [ Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:34 am ]
Post subject:
CO..........................

Author:	BVCRD [ Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:
Once it warms up you'll be fine. Our CRDs have that extra heater in line for fast warmups.

Author:	nursecosmo [ Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:
Sounds like a burnt out alternator to me. Even if you could reliably run the block heater while idling, the heat that it generates is not enough to even make the engine warm to the touch. In yakers's earlier post about idling, http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... 01&start=0 the question was discussed at length and the consensus seemed to be that, yes some accelerated wear occurs at idle, however, it is probably so little that if you were to only do it for a weekend, you would probably never even notice anything.

Author:	Coal Cracker [ Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:
Well if there ever was a case that I could say pissin in the wind, it would be this one.

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Block heater with cold idle? http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=39772	Page 1 of 1

Author:	geordi [ Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:
CO Is not a problem GMCTD, most diesels don't produce enough of it to give you a bad headache, much less kill you. Add to that, that the exhaust would need to be pumped into the enclosed cabin to even GET to give you that headache... And he's fine. I slept in my CRD just 3 days ago on a long drive, as a matter of fact. Don't worry about trying to use the block heater at all while the engine is running. It would only bring the coolant to about 120 or so anyway, and your inverter can't produce enough juice for that. The engine has a thermostat for this very purpose. If the coolant gets too cold, the thermostat will close off the radiator from the flow, but your cabin heating coil will still be getting the warm coolant flowing since it and the engine are never separated. Once the temp climbs above the thermostat's spring rating, it will open again. IIRC, our thermostats are like 180 degree models. Perfectly fine, and a proven technology in every water-cooled engine for over 70 years.

Author:	CRDMiller [ Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:
Ya'll always make me snicker :P gmctd, I love you man :P you've mentioned 3-4 times in other threads (i've been lurking here for years before i registered) this subject of CO. I appreciate your interest in our safty, but i'm not sucking on the end of my exhaust pipe (much to the dismay of my wife) if i were in a confined space (i.e not outside) I would think about it. BVCRD, I though the vicious heater's btu (somehow, and i dont know why i think this) was not used to heat the block/coolant/whatever and was only used to heat up the heater core (again why do i think this? i swear i've read it on these forums somewhere). nursecosmo, Is it a good idea to have a higher than required load on your alt? no, it's not a good idea. Here we agree. BUT Amps = Watts/Volts a=w/v 3.33.. Amps at 120v = 400 watt 33.3.. Amps at 12v = 400 watt BUTT my inverter is only like 96% efficient at >90% load (said inverter is rated for 4k24/7/ or 6k for 3 hours). Xantrix pro watt 4000 (came from a motor home) -33.3 + ((33.3.94)-33.3)) = 34.9 Amps Witch is right above the capacity of said inverter I wonder how much of this fuzzy math i messed up? :P Letttts call it 35 amps DC. This will not fry my alt. (witch I Know is at least 100 amp, but i believe it to be more like 138) Also we both know that the liberty is not actually at 12v, it's more like 14.5 unloaded idle. not only that, BUT the ~5% of 33 ampers that is lost to heat from my inverter, HEATS up my cab (15 watts@12vdc) (the entire idea) also the Additional load on the engine produces more btu, into the cooling system (again, that's the goal here) Coal Cracker, I agree with you = ) (sorta) If it helps, it helps. shrug* My initial question is if it were simply, less bad. Or not "less bad" than idling in the cold (for 8+ hours) I'm going to go with "who the hell cares" Because i'm not bringing my extension cord anyway! Thanks for the conversation!

Author:	geordi [ Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:
Very well thought out Mr Miller. As probably the only proponent (and experimenter) of long-term idling on light-duty diesels here... My answer would be simple: Let it idle, and ignore the naysayers. Past evidence has proven to me that the engine will be perfectly fine with it, and $5 for a hotel for 8 hours is MUCH better than $80 for the same 8 hours.

Author:	nursecosmo [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:20 am ]
Post subject:
Sounds like a go then. Let us know how it works out. I too have spent many painful nights in a rest stop parking lot on cross country trips.

Author:	gmctd [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:30 am ]
Post subject:
Silly me - and I tho't CO was produced at any rapid oxidation event, the longer the event the more the CO.................................. Reason 18-wheelers get away with it is the path of the exhaust thru the vertical orientation of the tail-pipe(s), way up there in the open air, high above the truck - CO is a problem with all infernal combustion engines - your KJ tailpipe exits down at the rear of the vehicle, but still under the cabin area, where any slight tail-wind blows the effluent back under the cabin - if you've survived several in-KJ motor-idling sleeping events, stop by the temple and burn a couple candles for Buddha, which should enhance yer lucky streak CO should never be dismissed as insignificant, even if you carry an exhaust snorkel that reaches way up above the roof

Author:	Coal Cracker [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:36 am ]
Post subject:
Well, I'd rather pay the 80 bucks, get a shower, watch some tv, enjoy a semi comfortable bed, and brush my teeth, and keep the acids out of my crankcase. Everything has a purpose, a diesel is meant to be driven under load, and at operating temperature, a hotel room is meant for many purposes, some are mentioned above, and some are for other reasons . You get my drift. You can do what you want by idling, plugging in and idling, heck run without the thermostat in too, a colder engine runs better, right? All I would do is take a vote, and see what answer you end up with. All I know is, that all of my diesels and gassers run at proper temperature, or they don't run , proper operating temperature is essential to any engine, and any good mechanic, shop tech or oil analysys will tell you so.

Author:	BVCRD [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:37 am ]
Post subject:
CRDMiller wrote: Ya'll always make me snicker gmctd, I love you man you've mentioned 3-4 times in other threads (i've been lurking here for years before i registered) this subject of CO. I appreciate your interest in our safty, but i'm not sucking on the end of my exhaust pipe (much to the dismay of my wife) if i were in a confined space (i.e not outside) I would think about it. BVCRD, I though the vicious heater's btu (somehow, and i dont know why i think this) was not used to heat the block/coolant/whatever and was only used to heat up the heater core (again why do i think this? i swear i've read it on these forums somewhere). nursecosmo, Is it a good idea to have a higher than required load on your alt? no, it's not a good idea. Here we agree. BUT Amps = Watts/Volts a=w/v 3.33.. Amps at 120v = 400 watt 33.3.. Amps at 12v = 400 watt BUTT my inverter is only like 96% efficient at >90% load (said inverter is rated for 4k24/7/ or 6k for 3 hours). Xantrix pro watt 4000 (came from a motor home) -33.3 + ((33.3.94)-33.3)) = 34.9 Amps Witch is right above the capacity of said inverter I wonder how much of this fuzzy math i messed up? Letttts call it 35 amps DC. This will not fry my alt. (witch I Know is at least 100 amp, but i believe it to be more like 138) Also we both know that the liberty is not actually at 12v, it's more like 14.5 unloaded idle. not only that, BUT the ~5% of 33 ampers that is lost to heat from my inverter, HEATS up my cab (15 watts@12vdc) (the entire idea) also the Additional load on the engine produces more btu, into the cooling system (again, that's the goal here) Coal Cracker, I agree with you = ) (sorta) If it helps, it helps. shrug* My initial question is if it were simply, less bad. Or not "less bad" than idling in the cold (for 8+ hours) I'm going to go with "who the hell cares" Because i'm not bringing my extension cord anyway! Thanks for the conversation! Pretty sure it heats the block contents for faster engine warm up and emissions.

Author:	Metal Man [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:
I'm pretty sure they say that running the motor with the heater plugged in is a good way to ruin the heater.

Author:	geordi [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:
I believe that the block heater has a thermostat control. So if the engine is above the heater's temp, it won't be running anyway. No way to hurt a heating element by having it in hotter conditions, unless it isn't already designed to be in those conditions. Every single time the engine runs, that coil is in above-it's-own-limit conditions. Logically, the coil cannot be harmed by plugging it in while the engine is already above it's upper cut-off limit. The coil simply won't run, and it couldn't add any heat to the coolant anyway. As for the engine's "proper operating temperature" while idling... As long as your engine has a thermostat, it will ALWAYS be at the proper operating temp, or the thermostat will remain closed until the engine warms to that level. This has ZERO to do with the loading of the engine, it is a simple fact of combustion temperatures and engine / thermostat design. Unless the thermostat has failed open or has been removed, the engine simply cannot operate below it's operating range for long - it will eventually reach that range and stay there. Idling won't ever make it cool to unsafe (for the engine) levels unless you happen to be in the arctic.

Author:	gmctd [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:
Maybe not dropping dead, but certainly coming away with varying stages of headaches from the daily traffic-jammed commute - that's a bunch of CO - however, imo, better safe than sorry in a non-moving, long-sitting, stationary vehicle

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Author:	Coal Cracker [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:
As for the engine's "proper operating temperature" while idling... As long as your engine has a thermostat, it will ALWAYS be at the proper operating temp, or the thermostat will remain closed until the engine warms to that level. This has ZERO to do with the loading of the engine, it is a simple fact of combustion temperatures and engine / thermostat design. Unless the thermostat has failed open or has been removed, the engine simply cannot operate below it's operating range for long - it will eventually reach that range and stay there. Idling won't ever make it cool to unsafe (for the engine) levels unless you happen to be in the arctic. [/quote] I'd have to disagree, If a diesel will run continuiously at operating temperature, why is there a viscous heater installed? possibly to aid in producing heated coolant in cooler weather. your key statement was "till the engine warms to that level", it's a solid fact that a diesel will not make significant heat until under load, or a higher idle in cold weather. A thermostat is not smart, nor does it have a phd, or went to M.I.T to learn how to keep an engine warm. it's on or off baby, and it thus relies on the coolant being warmed by the cylinders, if it's a 195 stat it opens when coolant is HEATED to that temp, if it's below the thermostat's heat range, yes it will close until it senses heat. if the engine is idling and staying 180 in cooler weather, the thermostat is insignificant. A diesel will in fact run below it's prime operating temp, if the ambient temp is cold enough, of course I could agree with some of your statements on this subject, but that would be under the assumption that the air temp was above 40 degrees.

Author:	nursecosmo [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:48 am ]
Post subject:
gmctd wrote: Silly me - and I tho't CO was produced at any rapid oxidation event, the longer the event the more the CO.................................. Reason 18-wheelers get away with it is the path of the exhaust thru the vertical orientation of the tail-pipe(s), way up there in the open air, high above the truck - CO is a problem with all infernal combustion engines - your KJ tailpipe exits down at the rear of the vehicle, but still under the cabin area, where any slight tail-wind blows the effluent back under the cabin - if you've survived several in-KJ motor-idling sleeping events, stop by the temple and burn a couple candles for Buddha, which should enhance yer lucky streak CO should never be dismissed as insignificant, even if you carry an exhaust snorkel that reaches way up above the roof While Diesel engines produce far less CO than a gasser, they do make some. My 2 cents on the matter though is that try as I might I can not find a single reported case of someone who has acquired CO poisoning from idling a vehicle outdoors unless it was stuck in a snow bank causing the exhaust to vent directly into the cab. If it were really a concern, more folks would be dropping dead at 5 hour traffic jams. Here are the CDC stats showing that you are far more likely to die from your furnace than being poisoned by your car. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5402a2.htm

Author:	nursecosmo [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:04 am ]
Post subject:
geordi wrote: I believe that the block heater has a thermostat control. So if the engine is above the heater's temp, it won't be running anyway. No way to hurt a heating element by having it in hotter conditions, unless it isn't already designed to be in those conditions. Every single time the engine runs, that coil is in above-it's-own-limit conditions. Logically, the coil cannot be harmed by plugging it in while the engine is already above it's upper cut-off limit. The coil simply won't run, and it couldn't add any heat to the coolant anyway. As for the engine's "proper operating temperature" while idling... As long as your engine has a thermostat, it will ALWAYS be at the proper operating temp, or the thermostat will remain closed until the engine warms to that level. This has ZERO to do with the loading of the engine, it is a simple fact of combustion temperatures and engine / thermostat design. Unless the thermostat has failed open or has been removed, the engine simply cannot operate below it's operating range for long - it will eventually reach that range and stay there. Idling won't ever make it cool to unsafe (for the engine) levels unless you happen to be in the arctic. Try driving down the highway in -32* temps. It will never reach " proper operating temperature". When you come to a stop and let it idle, it will drop down to barely warm.

Author:	geordi [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:26 am ]
Post subject:
Do you not have the entire grill blocked off? I would think that killing ALL the airflow would be a requirement in such temperatures for any diesel. The viscous clutch heater helps the engine operate under a load, and directly transfer heat energy into the coolant to warm it up to operating temperature from a COLD engine that has been sitting overnight / for several hours in cold temps. Ditto for the thermostat cap - It starts off closed, in a cold engine. As the engine reaches operating temps for coolant, it opens and allows coolant to flow through the radiator to maintain the temp JUST AT the opening/closing threshold of the thermostat. If the coolant temp dips due to airflow, then yea, the thermostat WILL close off again and the coolant will only circulate inside the engine and cabin core. But the engine is also being AIR COOLED in this case - Block that front end! If you don't have a skid plate... Think about getting one, and line it with engine blanket. It isn't just for sound control, it also keeps the engine insulated. The main function of the thermostat is from the engine's first startup of the day, but it continues working all the time to maintain that temperature. Yea, it doesn't have any "smart" functions, but it doesn't need them. When the temp hits that OPEN threshold, the spring is compressed by the bi-metal forces and it opens. When the temp dips, that metal contracts, and the spring forces the hole closed again. Simple. Idiot proof, and proven. I'm sorry if I sound like I keep repeating myself, but it seems like the function of such a simple part is being misunderstood in this case.

Author:	nursecosmo [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:
geordi wrote: Do you not have the entire grill blocked off? I would think that killing ALL the airflow would be a requirement in such temperatures for any diesel. The viscous clutch heater helps the engine operate under a load, and directly transfer heat energy into the coolant to warm it up to operating temperature from a COLD engine that has been sitting overnight / for several hours in cold temps. But the engine is also being AIR COOLED in this case - Block that front end! If you don't have a skid plate... Think about getting one, and line it with engine blanket. It isn't just for sound control, it also keeps the engine insulated. Geordi; I don't think that you understand how cold sub zero temps really are. Yes I have a Fia radiator blanket and the lower holes blocked. The viscous heater will never heat the engine enough to move the gauge when the temp is <-30* no mater how long you let it idle. All that happens when you let the engine idle is that unburnt fuel comes out the tail pipe. The only point which I am making with this is that your statement that "As long as your engine has a thermostat, it will ALWAYS be at the proper operating temp", is not accurate. I am by no means making the assertion that all idling is bad. When the temp is -20 and you have to make some short stops for errands, if you don't keep the engine idling the windshield will ice up on the inside from your own breath. Big rigs definitely show increased wear after thousands of hours of idling but In reference to CRDMiller's original post, I can't see how idling the engine for a weekend anywhere around San Diego would cause any noticeable damage to his ride.