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CRD Transmission Problem
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=40641		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  abrace [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  CRD Transmission Problem
All,

As I have stated in other posts I have the Suncoast TC, Suncoast High Output Power Pack (another name for the clutch rebuild kit) and transgo shift kit installed. Install was done last September.

Saturday night I was accelerating WOT up an onramp and all of a sudden the transmission felt like it went into Neutral. Soon I figured out I had lost 3rd gear+.

I had it towed to the guy that installed the above mentioned Suncoast parts as he gave me a 1yr warranty. I assumed it had something to do with the overdrive clutch.

Shop takes the gearbox apart and informed me that the only problem was that a snap ring came out of its groove and this caused the OD clutch to no longer function. Nothing wrong with the snap ring..it did not shatter...Just came out of the groove.

He stated he called Suncoast and they had never seen this before and he stated he had also never seen it before. He does not know why it came out of the groove and is putting it back in. He claims that it is the correct size snap-ring and in the correct place. Since he doesn't know why it happened he cannot tell me it won't happen again.

Luckily I was close to home.

I am ready to get rid of this thing. Does anyone have any ideas? I am starting to think that this transmission guy (he is the one Suncoast recommended I might add) does not know what he is doing.

---Aaron
Author:  chadhargis [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've seen snap rings come out, and it's usually due to one thing.

Improper installation.

Snap rings are typically stamped. This leaves a "bevel" on one side of the ring. If you put the bevel on the outside, the snap ring can slip off.
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
chadhargis wrote:
I've seen snap rings come out, and it's usually due to one thing.

Improper installation.

Snap rings are typically stamped. This leaves a "bevel" on one side of the ring. If you put the bevel on the outside, the snap ring can slip off.


x2, I saw a turbo 400 destroyed by a flipped snapped ring had to figure out what the other mechanic did wrong. :roll: <------ old fart been around too long.
Author:  chadhargis [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
I was lucky.

I was replacing the shift spring and detent arm in my Suzuki GSX-R600 and installed the snap ring backward. It popped off, but stuck to the engine case thanks to some oil film, otherwise it would have fallen into the oil pan requiring me to remove the radiator and exhaust system to get to the old pan so it could be removed. WHEW!
Author:  abrace [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks. I just called Suncoast and asked to have them reach out to the mechanic to see if they all can figure this out. "Magic" is not an acceptable answer for me.

I assumed that Suncoast vetted their installers out before they recommended them but maybe not.

Funny thing is I never would have done the high output powerpak (clutch packs) but Suncoast highly recommended it.

---Aaron
Author:  warp2diesel [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Snap rings
The company I work for has equipment that has a lot of snap ring (several hundred), every time I inspect the installation I have to run and inspect every snap ring on the chains on both sides. Some of these units are over 40' and the half links are 200mm (7.87") long. Out of thousands of snap rings, I have fixed two snap rings out of all the units I have inspected that were not properly seated due to burs on the pins or snap rings.
Unlike most of the chronic problems caused by aggressive BEAN COUNTERS that have caused a lot more than an acceptable warranty claim rate, this was a snaffoo and not poor engineering by Chrysler or Suncoast.

If the guy reseated the snap ring and ate the labor, count your blessing and get on with life, stuff happens.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Abrace,

So, did the shop offer to "fix" the problem under their warranty at no additional charge? (Since I live nearby in Mass, I'd like to know the name of the shop.)

I would suggest that the snap ring groove be carefully inspected for any signs of "rounding" or other defect and, if none are found, a new replacement snap ring of the proper type should be installed.

Prior to this problem, how have you found the performance of what must have cost you well over $2000?

How many miles total on the Jeep and how many since the Suncoast install?

Thanks,

DOC
Author:  retmil46 [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Snap rings
warp2diesel wrote:
Out of thousands of snap rings, I have fixed two snap rings out of all the units I have inspected that were not properly seated due to burs on the pins or snap rings.
Unlike most of the chronic problems caused by aggressive BEAN COUNTERS that have caused a lot more than an acceptable warranty claim rate, this was a snaffoo and not poor engineering by Chrysler or Suncoast.

If the guy reseated the snap ring and ate the labor, count your blessing and get on with life, stuff happens.


Agreed. At this point, it sounds like it was just your misfortune due to the law of averages to be the "one or two out of thousands", for whatever reason. And if the mechanic did honor his warranty and fixed it free of charge, indeed count your blessings - that's a rare occurrence these days. And if the guy is truly at a loss for how it came off, at least he was honest about it and didn't give you a BS story blaming it on Suncoast or a defective part when it wasn't.

Believe me, I know what a PITA a CRD can be, and how upsetting and inconvenient it can be to be without the use of your vehicle due to an unforseen mechanical problem. But for now, without more evidence, publicly chastising Suncoast and/or the mechanic would be akin to me badmouthing Ford because they didn't make sure the chump holding the steering wheel of the Explorer that t-boned my '87 MB knew how to drive before they sold him the vehicle.
Author:  gmctd [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Snap-rings come in two basic flavors, inner and outer inclusive, but usually the inside type that fits into a bore:

1rst type is flat both surfaces, intended to slip into a groove to position some component, typically a bearing, shaft, clutch-plate, piston, seal, cover, etc

2nd type is flat one surface, beveled opposite surface, intended to 'make-up' clearance(s) in the associated components, such that, as the beveled side seats into the flat-faced groove it compresses the assembly - the beveled surface always faces away from the components to preclude disastrous event(s)

The large replacement snap-ring in the Transgo kit precisely addresses this particular scenario

Is a 3rd type, totally round in cross-section, usually removed by inserting a tool into a small hole bored into the groove from the outside, or inside, as the case may be

Yeah, I know........I been around too long, too.........................
Author:  vegiH [ Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  HI from up in NH
Let me know how it goes with the tranny,I have a close friend that owns a tranny shop in Meuthen MASS if you need a good shop,don't give up on the lil diesel that didn't quit.I have been down that road(running on WVO,SEGR,EDGE programmer quirks etc),and I would never get rid of my lil hotrod(afterall they arean't making anymore).....................H
Author:  abrace [ Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
I didn't publicly blast the mechanic. I didn't give the shop name or location. I need to communicate what I am being told to get feedback. If he didn't take care of me I would have not hesitated to blast him.

Also, this is now the SIXTH time the jeep has been back to this mechanic for repairs to the transmission since his initial work (Suncoast upgrades-. The first five were caused by what turned out to be a bad valve body. It took him five failures before he figured that out with each time being him not sure what happened, just puts things back together and hands it back to me telling me it must have been a fluke. With this track record I am right in my fears that I can expect it to happen again.

I will say that the guy is trying his absolute best and has taken care of me every time (with the exception of having me pay for the valve body claiming it must have been defective since day one).

I regret having the high output power packs put in. There was nothing wrong with the transmission before this work (just the TC slipping issue). I got talked into the power packs. Once the gearbox was opened up it has never been the same.

It is quite frustrating.

I wish he had told me he had put the snap ring in backwards, or found some problems with it, but he claims it was in right to begin with and just must have blew off due to the pressure. That gives me concerns it will happen again and next time I won't be under warranty.

I am afraid the prudent thing may be to get rid of this vehicle. Which breaks my heart, but I cannot have my wife getting stranded out in the middle of nowhere.

As for Suncoast recommending him I stand by my statement. He is not a transmission expert. He is trying very hard but he relies on Suncoast a LOT for assistance. I assumed that he would have been a tranny guy for Suncoast to recommend him but I was mistaken. Shame on me for not checking him out better.


I am open to more ideas and feedback. That is why I posted this.



---Aaron
Author:  warp2diesel [ Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Is the snap ring on a clutch pack or valve body?
abrace wrote:
I didn't publicly blast the mechanic. I didn't give the shop name or location. I need to communicate what I am being told to get feedback. If he didn't take care of me I would have not hesitated to blast him.

Also, this is now the SIXTH time the jeep has been back to this mechanic for repairs to the transmission since his initial work (Suncoast upgrades-. The first five were caused by what turned out to be a bad valve body. It took him five failures before he figured that out with each time being him not sure what happened, just puts things back together and hands it back to me telling me it must have been a fluke. With this track record I am right in my fears that I can expect it to happen again.

I will say that the guy is trying his absolute best and has taken care of me every time (with the exception of having me pay for the valve body claiming it must have been defective since day one).

I regret having the high output power packs put in. There was nothing wrong with the transmission before this work (just the TC slipping issue). I got talked into the power packs. Once the gearbox was opened up it has never been the same.

It is quite frustrating.

I wish he had told me he had put the snap ring in backwards, or found some problems with it, but he claims it was in right to begin with and just must have blew off due to the pressure. That gives me concerns it will happen again and next time I won't be under warranty.

I am afraid the prudent thing may be to get rid of this vehicle. Which breaks my heart, but I cannot have my wife getting stranded out in the middle of nowhere.

As for Suncoast recommending him I stand by my statement. He is not a transmission expert. He is trying very hard but he relies on Suncoast a LOT for assistance. I assumed that he would have been a tranny guy for Suncoast to recommend him but I was mistaken. Shame on me for not checking him out better.


I am open to more ideas and feedback. That is why I posted this.



---Aaron


I can not determine from your posting. That info will put it into perspective.
Author:  abrace [ Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Realized I didn't answer DOC4444's questions.

It was a bit over $3k for the work. That included the labor, new Suncoast TC, Shiftkit, Suncoast high output clutch packs and deep transmission pan. When it isn't failing it is awesome...Worth the money.

I can, without question, recommend the Suncoast TC. It has performed flawlessley.

I did the high output powerpack because Suncoast recommended it due to the very very frequent towing I perform with the vehicle. They stated it would help the gearbox last longer and they are probably right. Problem is the entire gearbox needs to be taken apart and rebuilt for them to be installed. If the person doing it isn't 100% comfortable rebuilding gearboxes I think it opens up a pandora's box.

Another problem is that my mechanic (again he is trying hard) does not seem to have the proper scan-tool to read our ECM. He also does not seem to have a relationship with any Chrysler dealerships to have them scan it for him when a problem comes up.

I want to stress again that I like this guy. He is a nice guy. I made him agree to a 1 year warranty to earn my business and I am glad that I did. I just only have a few months left on that and if this problem happens again I am out a good $2k in labor to rebuild the gearbox again.

---Aaron
Author:  abrace [ Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Warp2diesel,

It was the snap ring for the OD clutch pack. I believe it was the outer snap ring. Hopefully I am using the correct terminology. From what I understand there are 2 snap rings involved with the OD clutch pack.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  If shifting is OK and no junk in the pan, you may be out....
abrace wrote:
Warp2diesel,

It was the snap ring for the OD clutch pack. I believe it was the outer snap ring. Hopefully I am using the correct terminology. From what I understand there are 2 snap rings involved with the OD clutch pack.


...the woods. Can you swap cars with your wife for a few days and run it through the paces?
You paid a chunk of change and there were some issues due to the learning curve of the technician, but from what I can deduce, the learning curve was on the valve body and the OD clutch pack snap ring was the unrelated snaffoo.

If it shifts great, chances are the valve body is OK and he got it right.

Snap rings are another issue and pop out type failure on them is a random freak occurrence. Chances of having another random freak occurrence of a snap ring popping out or breaking would be an extremely unlikely occurrence.

I would not be surprised if the tech was relieved to find the popped out snap ring instead of another problem with the valve body.

As far as the Heavy Duty Clutch Pack goes, it sounds like over kill to me too. I never see a 2.8L CRD putting out 400 + HP. Salesmen like to pile on all they can get and then some more to make more money, the Suncoast guy must have done it to you.
In my industry, when we or a Competitor sells a piece of Equipment in an aera with money, they throw in the kitchen sink, in poor areas, they strip off the bells and whistles, human nature.
Author:  abrace [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:40 am ]
Post subject: 
Yah, I can swap with her for a bit. I am hopefully picking it up today as he had to get another part. He accidentally broke a sensor on the engine while taking the gearbox out. I will be beating the snot out of it and see what it does. I will keep everyone posted.

---Aaron
Author:  retmil46 [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
OK, with THAT kind of history as to what you've been thru, you ARE well justified in questioning the mechainc's abilities and Suncoast's recommendations of this guy and the clutch packs. Initially, it sounded as if all that had happened was a one time freak occurrence with the snap ring (and for just the snap ring, that may still be the case). But with all that going on, I would have been screaming bloody murder myself by now.

As far as the clutch packs, I was one of the initial installers of the Suncoast TC not long after it came out, and my tranny shop dealt straight with Ron Wolverton at Suncoast as far as any questions, it being a fairly new product. Both agreed at the time there was no need for high performance clutch packs for normal use - my tranny guy said in his experience they could end up being too "grabby" and cause problems when shifting between gears, and that other than the type of lining/coating on the discs, there was no fundamental difference between them and the stock clutch packs.

Either Suncoast has received data and experience over the past two years that has caused them to change their recommendations, or there have been some personnel changes there that have not been for the better.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just for the record, so far no one, to my knowledge, has indicated that they have installed a Suncoast TC WITHOUT also installing the "clutchpack"and ended up regretting it.

Anyone want to differ with this?

DOC
Author:  retmil46 [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
DOC4444 wrote:
Just for the record, so far no one, to my knowledge, has indicated that they have installed a Suncoast TC WITHOUT also installing the "clutchpack"and ended up regretting it.

Anyone want to differ with this?

DOC


One vote here. Did the TC, shift kit, and new design oil pump. Kept the original clutch packs. No problems since. Of course, that was with only 20K + miles on the vehicle at the time, never used for towing previously, highway and commuting only.

One option I haven't seen anyone mention - if the vehicle has seen some serious towing useage and miles prior to doing the Suncoast install, what about just popping in a new set of the standard OEM clutch packs if it's a concern?
Author:  gmctd [ Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Some thoughts, fer yer consideration -

Main thing to remember here is that a transmission expert on clutch'n'band transmissions or FWD transmissions is not necessarily gonna be an expert\equiv on the 545RFE and it's siblings, likely having seen almost none of that flavor, considering the immense ratio of smallish FWD boxes to RWD Diesel KJ's and Hemi's - likely, he could just be a hungry friend or relative of the recommender

'Nuther thing to remember is that a recommendation from Ron is a Suncoast recommendation - a recommendation from employee Floogie the flusher is a sun coast recommendation, but not a Suncoast recommendation - unless talking to Ron, you're likely to get a hearsay rec from a hungry sales slut, wanting the commission but not understanding or not caring about the concept behind the upgrade - employers have no second-by-second control over employee actions - however, just like husbands and parents, companies just have to bite the bullet and suffer the consequences

Most call-ins are gonna be from the Hemi crowd, wanting to race their also 545RFE-equipped truck(s), which will need the rebuild with kolene steels and eagle clutches - KJ call-ins will be few and far between, with only ~17000 total production line builds - KJ'ers need only the Hemi TCC, with it's increased hydraulic hookup and kevlar clutch, but the sales slut is gonna sell what makes him\her the most commission, particularly if the caller-inner don't know squat about his Jeep, or is of the mine's bigger'n yers persuasion

It's just not good practice to make the company seem at fault when dealing with a possibly less than efficient employee of the company, remembering that hindsight is always 20\20, but rather mention the employee by name (as the perpetrator of the error) when describing the problem(s) - f'rinstance, "Anybody have any problems with upgrades recommended by Floogie the flusher at Suncoast? He recommended to see his expert cuz over at Shiftless Trannies, LLC, for a cheap upgrade, less than half what it would cost at Suncoast - now, that's a good deal, no matter who you are"

IMO, of course.............
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