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VW "SPECIAL OIL"
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=40824		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  vtdog [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  VW "SPECIAL OIL"
I normally don't respond to oil threads and in fact, I pretty much ignore them as I get free changes for life from the dealer and they put in the evil Mobil 0-40.

I did come across something that I think makes the discussions concerning the CRD oil seem normal. I have a neighbor who bought an '09 Jetta TDI. He has a long commute of about 75 miles each way so the TDI thing made sense. In addition, he got a pretty good deal as the TDIs are not exactly flying out of the dealerships.

To make a very long story short, I was talking with him and he told me that the TDI requires "special" oil that is VW approved and that to use anything other than this brew voids the warranty. He said that the parts guy told him this story when he went to buy a filter and that he confirmed it with the service writer and his owners manual. He related me that he has looked up the special oil on the web, but could not find anyone that sold it beyond the VW dealer who wants $ 9.00 per quart (liter?). I have no idea what is so special about the oil other than keeping the warranty valid. I suggested he look in the TDI club website, but don't know what he found out.

So it seems that VW has gone Chrysler one better as far as the oil is concerned. Not only does the oil have to be diesel certified, but it also has to have been run past the thighs of Bavarian virgins to check for its purity.
Author:  retmil46 [ Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
You think that's a pain, look at what they're saying about the new CJ-4 oils and what they're doing to the camshafts in the older TDI and flat tappet engines on tdiclub - they're starting to eat camshafts big time - mainly because they reduced the amount of ZDDP (zinc and phosphorous) in the oil from 1500 to 1800 ppm in the CI-4+ and older formulations, down to 600 to 800 ppm in the CJ-4 spec - all to keep from ruining these new catalytic converters on 07 and later vehicles.

Some of the TDI guys with older engines have went to adding ZDDP Plus or other engine break-in additives with a high concentration of zinc and phosphorous with the new CJ-4 spec. On newer vehicles, the engine manufacturers adapted by going to roller lifters.
Author:  kdlewis1975 [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:00 am ]
Post subject: 
I have a coworker who bought an '06 TDI last year. We discuss diesels from time to time. The subject of oil has come up more than once. In his research, he found that the reason VW has their own exclusive spec that no one could meet was because they had extra lubricity additives in their blend. Apparently, these were needed to keep the pumping system in the pump deuse versions of the engine sufficiently lubricated. When VW finally coughed up the cash and license the technology for common rail systems from the patent holders, some of the "enhanced lubricity" requirement went away.
Author:  Diggerfreek [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:12 am ]
Post subject: 
man, that oil change has got to hurt. As was stated before, It all has to do with the additive package. Now, I wonder it some one such as royal purple or amsoil makes a syn oil to VW spec
Author:  bdptp73 [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:55 am ]
Post subject: 
$9.00 a quart doesn't seem too bad for the PITA ESP oil. It's $12.00 a quart at the dealer for the oil for the GC diesel. I hope his TDI doesn''t hold 10 quarts like my GC. Here are two sites that are for the new TDI's oil, you can pass them along. I don't know if he will save any money or not but it is a resource. I'm getting my oil for about $8.00 a quart including shipping from avlube.com.

http://www.avlube.com/mo1espfo5wvw.html
http://www.germanfilters.com/5w30-50700 ... _4051.html

I've heard of Dodge dealers trying to charge $250.00 for a GC CRD oil change, but the MB dealers only charge $150.00. Go figure. I think I'll stick to changing it myself for $90.00

Jason
Author:  UFO [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:36 am ]
Post subject: 
The TDIs only hold 4-5 quarts. My understanding of the newer TDI oils is they have less ZDDP to prevent premature failure of the catalytic converter. They may also have more lubricity additives, but the PD engines NEED it as they suffer very narrow valve cam lobes. Too narrow some might say, some who have cam and lifter failures with under 50k on the engine. The root cause of the failures is being hotly discussed currently on tdiclub.com
Author:  Uffe [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:42 am ]
Post subject: 
PD engines need a stronger oil film because of the pressure applied from the cam onto the PD element to pressurize the diesel fuel.

This goes for my little fabia, and i use the VW 507.00 longlife III norm. The oil is cheap, it's about $12 per liter.
Author:  ColoradoCRD [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:14 am ]
Post subject: 
In addition to my Liberty CRD I recently bought a Grand Cherokee with the Mercedes 3.0 diesel. This engine also requires a special oil that is not widely available and typically can only be purchased at a Mercedes or Chrysler dealership. I believe it is referred to as specification "229.51" It looks like this is required for all of the new diesels that have particulate trap emissions controls. the 229.51 specification applies to oil that has a very low ash deposit characteristic needed to save the trap.

I have not needed to change my oil on the GC yet. In addition to buying the oil at the dealership, I have found an online source at reasonable cost. I think that as this oil standard applies to more vehicles, then the 229.52 spec oil will become readily available on the shelf. The oil comes in a variety of brands including Mobile1.

I wonder if this new oil spec is preferable for older diesels like the Liberty CRD?
Author:  bdptp73 [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:45 am ]
Post subject: 
ColoradoCRD wrote:
I wonder if this new oil spec is preferable for older diesels like the Liberty CRD?


I doubt that it is b/c the liberty doesn't have a DPF. The real question is is that if we put a provent on the GC CRD if we would need the ESP oil? The reason that the GC needs it is for when the CCV system puts oil in the intake and it gets burned that the ZDDP in regular oil would clog up the DPF. If we kept the oil out of the intake via provent, would we need the ESP oil or could we run regular off the shelf synthetic oil?

Jason
Author:  mackruss [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VW "SPECIAL OIL"
vtdog wrote:
I normally don't respond to oil threads and in fact, I pretty much ignore them as I get free changes for life from the dealer and they put in the evil Mobil 0-40.



Forgive me for asking but why do you say the " evil Mobil 0-40"
Author:  ac5501 [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
My 06 TDi required VW spec 505.01. I would have dealer do all the oil changes so they could not use that as an excuse to deny any warrenty coverage. The cost was 79.00 for the oil change. At first glance that seems steep, but with a 10,000 mile oil change interval its pretty close if not better then a 25.00-30.00 quickee oil change at 3,500 mile interval.


You do have to watch the VW dealers though that 79.00 oil change at my dealer was 112.00 at other VW dealers in the area
Author:  vtdog [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
I said "evil Mobil 0-40" because in the almost 4 years I have owned the CRD there must have been 5,000 posts concerning the "fact" that this oil is not good for the engine and that using it in the Jeep is like feeding ground glass to your child. Because of all the chest thumping (and shilling for AMSOIL) I actually had a Blackstone oil test done. All my specs were within standard including a real good TBN number (which I can't remember at the moment). I stick to a 8-10k change interval as I get the 2 free services per year and (so far) have had no major problems beyond the recalls and one EGR change at 10k.

So, after all the thousands of words wrtten about the Mobil 0-40 I can only conclude that it is produced by the devil himself and is actually liquid evil for the engine (except mine, of course).
Author:  mackruss [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
vtdog wrote:
I said "evil Mobil 0-40" because in the almost 4 years I have owned the CRD there must have been 5,000 posts concerning the "fact" that this oil is not good for the engine and that using it in the Jeep is like feeding ground glass to your child. Because of all the chest thumping (and shilling for AMSOIL) I actually had a Blackstone oil test done. All my specs were within standard including a real good TBN number (which I can't remember at the moment). I stick to a 8-10k change interval as I get the 2 free services per year and (so far) have had no major problems beyond the recalls and one EGR change at 10k.

So, after all the thousands of words wrtten about the Mobil 0-40 I can only conclude that it is produced by the devil himself and is actually liquid evil for the engine (except mine, of course).




Well let me ask this question then, do the Castrol's, Valvoline, Motul, Amsoil and whoever else manufacture their synthetics from a fossil base or are they manufactured from zero to end product 100% synthetic.

Please note that i'm not picking on these brands just curious.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
mackruss wrote:
vtdog wrote:
I said "evil Mobil 0-40" because in the almost 4 years I have owned the CRD there must have been 5,000 posts concerning the "fact" that this oil is not good for the engine and that using it in the Jeep is like feeding ground glass to your child. Because of all the chest thumping (and shilling for AMSOIL) I actually had a Blackstone oil test done. All my specs were within standard including a real good TBN number (which I can't remember at the moment). I stick to a 8-10k change interval as I get the 2 free services per year and (so far) have had no major problems beyond the recalls and one EGR change at 10k.

So, after all the thousands of words wrtten about the Mobil 0-40 I can only conclude that it is produced by the devil himself and is actually liquid evil for the engine (except mine, of course).




Well let me ask this question then, do the Castrol's, Valvoline, Motul, Amsoil and whoever else manufacture their synthetics from a fossil base or are they manufactured from zero to end product 100% synthetic.

Please note that i'm not picking on these brands just curious.


I have no way of knowing but I would imagine that you probably have E-spec mobil-1 down there in South Africa. Mobil 1 is considered "evil" here in the US because a few years ago they changed their formula from 100% base 4 PAO to a blend of base 3 dino oil and synthetic after a court case was passed in the US allowing highly refined base 3 oils to be classified as "Synthetic". The EU and most Asian countries still require synthetic oil to be made of 100% synthetic oil and may not contain any mineral oil components.
All that being said, lubricity tests show very little to no reduction in lubricity between the old Mobil 1 and the new formula, but the volatility temp has dropped which some feel is a bad thing for turbo diesel engines.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
So they took the zink out of the oil :?
I had a 96 XJ with over 150k miles that knocked loudly at idel. So I pulled the pan and replaced the bearings and put on a high volume oil pump. The old ones were still good but I put new ones in because I had gotten them, We used Lubriplate #105 "assemblie" lube on the bearings and it was quiet till the next time I changed the oil when the knock resumed :cry: Out of desperation I tried RESTORE and with the engine warm and ideling I poured it in and when half of it was in the noise dissappeared totally :lol: I duplicated this every change till I sold it. The last time I went to the RESTORE site it mentioned it had zink in it and after reading the above I went to their site just now and it no longer mentions zink. I did not take a compression reading before or after on the 96 XJ because the problem was noise, not the way it ran :wink: This is what they now say.
RESTORE is the only product that contains the technologically advanced CSL formulation which actually fills in and seals micro-leaks in the cylinder wall. The result is increased engine compression and more engine power.
http://www.restoreusa.com/
I don't want to think about the lobes being wiped off my camshafts :( Isn't the recommended Mobil 0-30 a gasoline oil and does it has the zink been removed from it too?
Author:  VACRD [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
I just bought a quart of the required oil for my Jetta TDI at the dealer in Springfield Va. It cost $6.50. Almost the same I pay for my CRD.

The TDI needs to be changed every 10,000 miles. First three oil changes are free.

I change my CRD every 5,000 miles. Very easy with the Fomoto.

The TDI has a plastic sheet under the engine. Doesn't look easy to drop to change oil.

Now that diesel is almost equal to gas the 25 MPG on the CRD and 41 MPG on the TDI are looking good.
Author:  Turbo Tim [ Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
The oil change is very easy. That plastic bottom piece is only held on with about 12 small torx screws.
I have the 2006 Jetta with the TDI.
Get a Fumoto valve for it. Remember that on the VW you change the oil filter FIRST!, then drain the oil pan. The reason is because it has a cartridge type filter, and when you pull it out, it exposes a drain hole in the bottom of the filter housing that lets it drain into the oil pan.
Get your filters at NAPA (made by WIX).
As far as the "Special Oil" goes, it has something like a 515.05 rating, which I found out was a European rating. There is no straight cross to an American API rating.
So according to the TDI web site, just use good old Rotella Synthetic 5-30W and be happy.
Author:  Uffe [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Turbo Tim wrote:
Remember that on the VW you change the oil filter FIRST!, then drain the oil pan. The reason is because it has a cartridge type filter, and when you pull it out, it exposes a drain hole in the bottom of the filter housing that lets it drain into the oil pan.


Ah so that's why I got away with pouring just 4 liters into the TDI instead of 4.5 liters. I changed the filter after the oil. I think.

I'll remember that for next time I change the oil.

Luckily I've only done 28,000 miles this way :twisted:
Author:  mackruss [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Turbo Tim wrote:
So according to the TDI web site, just use good old Rotella Synthetic 5-30W and be happy.


Have you tried using this oil in the CRD - 5-30W :?:
Author:  retmil46 [ Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
The EPA has been mandating longer and longer service lifes for catalytic converters. Hand in hand with this, they have also been mandating lower levels of zinc and phosphorous in engine oils.

Reason for this - the zinc and phosphorous in the engine oil that ends up getting burned in the engine and passed thru the exhaust system - via the PCV system on a gasser or closed CCV on a diesel - tends to contaminate and clog up catalytic converters and DPF's.

That's probably also the reason why newer vehicles have the stipulation in the owners manual not to use any aftermarket engine oil additives, as most of them up until recently contained some level of ZDDP in them. Even STP Oil Treatment lists ZDDP as one of the contents on the bottle.

Take Lucas Engine Oil Break-In Additive. It has high enough levels of ZDDP that it warns on the bottle not to use in 1994 or newer vehicles with catalytic converters, or in engines that spec oils with certain later API classifications.

Problem is, ZDDP has been the primary anti-wear and hardening agent used in engine oil for over 70 years, and they don't have an adequate substitute that would satisfy the EPA's requirements as of yet.

One forum member recently went to a TDI GTG. He said several people there with older design TDI engines were complaining of rapid camshaft wear with the new CJ-4 oils - but that nothing was showing up on oil analysis tests. From what they were able to learn, apparently the oil analysis testing methods weren't designed to look for wear of this type and magnitude - they were only able to detect it via visual inspection of the camshaft, or when the camshaft just finally gave up the ghost. Some of the owners with older TDI's had taken to adding an aftermarket product, ZDDP Plus, in an attempt to prevent this.
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