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Diesel 500 versus 50
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=42103		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  mackruss [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:16 am ]
Post subject:  Diesel 500 versus 50
Hi Folks

Most of you would be using probably 15ppm diesel in the States but in SA we only have 500 and LSD at 50ppm.

My question - Would using 500ppm with my EGR blocked off and EHM really be all that bad for my CRD as i need to travel a bit further to get the 50ppm.
Author:  UFO [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Diesel 500 versus 50
mackruss wrote:
Hi Folks

Most of you would be using probably 15ppm diesel in the States but in SA we only have 500 and LSD at 50ppm.

My question - Would using 500ppm with my EGR blocked off and EHM really be all that bad for my CRD as i need to travel a bit further to get the 50ppm.
No, it won't be bad for the CRD. It's probably got more lubricity, and the CRD was designed to handle it -- at the time they we sold in the US that's all the fuel that was available. It's a VERY good thing you have the EGR taken care of, as that is speculated to be the cause of the VWs clogging intakes so quickly.
Author:  mackruss [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:09 am ]
Post subject: 
Is the cetane still the same in the 500ppm and only the sulphur levels that were reduced that reduced the lubricity in the 50 and 15ppm's.

Secondly, would the inlet manifold using 500ppm not clog up quicker than if using 50ppm.
Author:  bdptp73 [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
I don't believe that the sulfur has anything to do with the cetane level, just the lubricity level.

Your intake shouldn't ever clog up because you have the EGR block off plate and the EHM. Oil from not having the EHM and soot from the EGR is what combines and causes the intake to clog up. No soot+no oil=no clog
Author:  warp2diesel [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diesel 500 versus 50
UFO wrote:
mackruss wrote:
Hi Folks

Most of you would be using probably 15ppm diesel in the States but in SA we only have 500 and LSD at 50ppm.

My question - Would using 500ppm with my EGR blocked off and EHM really be all that bad for my CRD as i need to travel a bit further to get the 50ppm.
No, it won't be bad for the CRD. It's probably got more lubricity, and the CRD was designed to handle it -- at the time they we sold in the US that's all the fuel that was available. It's a VERY good thing you have the EGR taken care of, as that is speculated to be the cause of the VWs clogging intakes so quickly.


I cleaned out my Wife's TDI intake last week end, EGR is disabled now.
Author:  UFO [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Diesel 500 versus 50
warp2diesel wrote:
UFO wrote:
mackruss wrote:
Hi Folks

Most of you would be using probably 15ppm diesel in the States but in SA we only have 500 and LSD at 50ppm.

My question - Would using 500ppm with my EGR blocked off and EHM really be all that bad for my CRD as i need to travel a bit further to get the 50ppm.
No, it won't be bad for the CRD. It's probably got more lubricity, and the CRD was designed to handle it -- at the time they we sold in the US that's all the fuel that was available. It's a VERY good thing you have the EGR taken care of, as that is speculated to be the cause of the VWs clogging intakes so quickly.


I cleaned out my Wife's TDI intake last week end, EGR is disabled now.
I've cleaned mine too, but I need to kill the EGR without the CEL. I tried just plugging the EGR vacuum, and although my mileage marginally increased, the driveability suffers.
Author:  mackruss [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
What about screwing up the injectors, bellowing black smoke, clogging the fuel filter and crudding the exhaust ports.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  ULSD is for the more advanced emission add ons
mackruss wrote:
What about screwing up the injectors, bellowing black smoke, clogging the fuel filter and crudding the exhaust ports.


Mackruss: You don't have any of that stuff. Ether way you go on fuel, eliminating the EGR will eliminate a lot of your problems. Yah if you wanted to go into the how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin argument, you could pontificate on some of the sulfur mutating into H2SO4 and have it etching your metal surfaces before the engine warms up.
To be totally honest, your time would be better spent doing yard work so your KJ looks better parked by your house or some other productive activity.
Author:  BVCRD [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
You would have the typical buildups associated with sulfer that we had before 15 ppm.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Like what?
BVCRD wrote:
You would have the typical buildups associated with sulfer that we had before 15 ppm.


Eliminate the EGR and all you could get is some carbon in the engine that you would get any way and soot in the exhaust. Sulfur may degrade the soot trap catalytic converter over time but that may be a how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin argument.
With the newer catalysts, sulfur kills them fast, that is why they need ULSD.
Lubricity is the one short coming of ULSD.
Author:  mackruss [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Like what?
warp2diesel wrote:
BVCRD wrote:
You would have the typical buildups associated with sulfer that we had before 15 ppm.


Eliminate the EGR and all you could get is some carbon in the engine that you would get any way and soot in the exhaust. Sulfur may degrade the soot trap catalytic converter over time but that may be a how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin argument.
With the newer catalysts, sulfur kills them fast, that is why they need ULSD.
Lubricity is the one short coming of ULSD.


Oil degradation from high sulphur levels in diesel on the other hand could contribute to engine wear so i guess using a 500 ppm diesel means increasing the frequency of oil changes.
Author:  UFO [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
mackruss wrote:
What about screwing up the injectors, bellowing black smoke, clogging the fuel filter and crudding the exhaust ports.
It's still diesel fuel, you sound like you might think the 500ppm was some sort of crude vegetable spread squeezed from a grease trap...
Author:  mackruss [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
UFO wrote:
mackruss wrote:
What about screwing up the injectors, bellowing black smoke, clogging the fuel filter and crudding the exhaust ports.
It's still diesel fuel, you sound like you might think the 500ppm was some sort of crude vegetable spread squeezed from a grease trap...


No not at all, i'm trying to determine if using 500ppm with regular oil changes would be more advantageous due to its lubricity to the 50ppm at a slightly higher cost however less influential on the degradation of my oil.
Author:  UFO [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
mackruss wrote:
UFO wrote:
mackruss wrote:
What about screwing up the injectors, bellowing black smoke, clogging the fuel filter and crudding the exhaust ports.
It's still diesel fuel, you sound like you might think the 500ppm was some sort of crude vegetable spread squeezed from a grease trap...


No not at all, i'm trying to determine if using 500ppm with regular oil changes would be more advantageous due to its lubricity to the 50ppm at a slightly higher cost however less influential on the degradation of my oil.
Well, I was unaware that the 500ppm would have an impact on the oil change interval, but I can see how it might now that I think about it.
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
With fuel of 500ppm sulfur, the catalyst life will be significantly decreased. You'll also notice some more stinking at idle and possible some more HC (blue smoke).

Vehicles sold in the US have a wear package on the injection system, even fuel of the worst lubricity won't hurt them. In other regional markets, fuel with sulfur of that life it could have a negative impact on fuel system longevity.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
MrMopar64 wrote:
With fuel of 500ppm sulfur, the catalyst life will be significantly decreased. You'll also notice some more stinking at idle and possible some more HC (blue smoke).

Vehicles sold in the US have a wear package on the injection system, even fuel of the worst lubricity won't hurt them. In other regional markets, fuel with sulfur of that life it could have a negative impact on fuel system longevity.


What is this "wear package"? There seems to be some rumors going around that the CP3 has some kind of "coating" on the metal surfaces. According Bosch rebuilders, there is no such thing, other than case hardening and a super finely polished finish. As far as I can tell, the US part numbers and all other countries are the same for injectors and CP3.
Author:  BVCRD [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:28 am ]
Post subject: 
They're "supposed" to be putting extra lubrication in the 15 ppm fuel, so that shouldn't be a problem. No such thing as too much though. Only thing I would be concerned of is the sulfer leaving sediments or clogging things, but one guy I talked to said that soot aka (graphite) was a good thing if suspended in oil. More lubrication.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:20 am ]
Post subject: 
BVCRD wrote:
They're "supposed" to be putting extra lubrication in the 15 ppm fuel, so that shouldn't be a problem. No such thing as too much though. Only thing I would be concerned of is the sulfer leaving sediments or clogging things, but one guy I talked to said that soot aka (graphite) was a good thing if suspended in oil. More lubrication.


The sulfur won't cause any sediment. It is chemically bound to the hydrocarbons forming Thiols. Although soot is not the same thing as graphite, I used to have a link to a study which showed oil with a high soot content to be have a higher lubricity. The only problem with getting enough soot to improve lubricity, is that by the time it has enough soot. the viscosity is ridiculously thick.
Author:  mackruss [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:33 am ]
Post subject: 
BVCRD wrote:
They're "supposed" to be putting extra lubrication in the 15 ppm fuel, so that shouldn't be a problem. No such thing as too much though. Only thing I would be concerned of is the sulfer leaving sediments or clogging things, but one guy I talked to said that soot aka (graphite) was a good thing if suspended in oil. More lubrication.


With the emphasis on "supposed to be " i might be better off with the 50ppm.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Theory Vs Empirical Evidence
mackruss wrote:
BVCRD wrote:
They're "supposed" to be putting extra lubrication in the 15 ppm fuel, so that shouldn't be a problem. No such thing as too much though. Only thing I would be concerned of is the sulfer leaving sediments or clogging things, but one guy I talked to said that soot aka (graphite) was a good thing if suspended in oil. More lubrication.


With the emphasis on "supposed to be " i might be better off with the 50ppm.


Theory is a Wild @$$ Guess mane by so called Experts (Leak of unknown pressure or quantity) :idea:

Facts are based upon the Laws Of Physics and other Empirical Evidence :)

Staying within the Laws of Physics is the safest bet.
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