Linky: http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/30/news/companies/chrysler_bankruptcy/index.htm?postversion=2009043009

Any bets on how long before they progress from Chapter 11 (re-org) to Chapter 7 (Liquidation)?

They have been down before and will make it back again. If the unions had made concessions earlier it may have helped. The last thing we need is the government running the auto industry and telling us what to drive. The Russian government didn't have too much success running an auto company.

We have a lawyer running the country when we need someone who has a clue how business works. Dictating a marriage with Fiat isn't going to fix anything.

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Sold 05 CRD Patriot Blue, hole in the roof, Trailer tow, factory skids, LSD, Saris load bars, Michelin LTX M/S
Current Bright white 2010 Dakota Quad Cab 4x4 V8

Other than personal opinions that I differ with, does anyone have any direct proof that the unions were the SOURCE of the problem? I'm not saying that they were perfect, far from it. I'm a member of a stagehand union, and have been questioning the behavior in several areas. But I also don't have the complete picture about my union, and I don't think any of us have it about the UAW.

Where I see the real causes of these problems: Upper management's decisions to continually push the price of their cars to above what the average buyer can afford, building them outside the USA (Which REDUCES the available pool of buyers, thereby exacerbating the pricing problem) and finally, building things that are just like everyone else's, but at a lower quality. Cooled cupholders don't make up for a design that is 1000 lbs too heavy and has an unreliable transmission.

But the biggest cause of the problems for the auto industry is also one that they can't control, or haven't woken up to see the problem and the solution: If you can't FINANCE the car, you can't HAVE the car. Chrysler Motor Credit, GMAC, and Ford Motor Credit have been DENIED bailout money that was instead routed to big banks that used it to buy up smaller banks or investment firms... While not using it for restoring the credit system.

GMAC et al needs that money, and they aren't getting it. Putting money into the manufacturers for ANYTHING when they can't sell their product is putting a band-aid on a bullet hole. Its not gonna work.

For this reason, I maintain that Chrysler and GM are doomed. The unions may be doing unhelpful things, but the attitude of the companies that they want to slough off their pension obligations is equally unhelpful. They agreed to provide for the retirees, and now... What recourse does an 80 year old man that can't work have? He put in 40 years giving his life to them, and now they thank him by cutting off his reward and stealing it for themselves? Not cool.

Isn't this just a reorginization? Get a judge to cancel all contracts, punt the unions so they can become competitive?

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2006 KJ CRD Ltd - Suncoast, GDE Eco, EGR Delete, After market T-Stat, Skid Row skids, V6 airbox, 2.5" Turbo back
2005 KJ CRD Sport-Suncoast, Transco, GDE Hot-GDE Trans, EGR Delete, Skid Row skids, V6 airbox, 2.5" Turbo back, After market S-Stat
1987 Suzuki LWB Samurai -diesel powered, custom 4 link coil suspension 38.5 SX Swampers

This is what I would hope to happened, let bankruptcy occur, trim the fat, and start over with a better lineup and less overhead.

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http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

The union didn't do this. Management did it. Investors did it. Etc, etc. The union IS responsible for a large chunk of the cost of making cars. I have been on both sides of the fence. Without the unions the bean counters would have a field day, along with management. I think it is time that the unions get realistic when it comes to the workers benefits, some benefits are way out of reason.

Terry

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2011 Ford F-150 XLT 4X4

Unions had a time where they were very helpful to the worker, but that time has long since past. We live in a global economy and must compete on a global scale. If it is cheaper to build a car in a foreign country and ship it back to the US, then that is what a company will do.

Personally, I would like to see more manufacturing in the US. But it has to be the best option economically. When we lose our industry/manufacturing our wealth will quickly follow.

The Unions need to put the Company first, then the worker. When the company thrives it can expand and employ more people. If the Union forces the company out of business, then it was not really helping the worker.

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2005 Limited CRD

The unions always wanted more and the companies gave in to avoid strikes and passed on the costs. I had a eye opening week's employment at a GM plant in 1964. In my job I could easilly double "what was expected" and QUADROUPLE what they did but I broke a sweat I was hired to get stocked up before a strike and got my layoff notice on a thursday and desided I would double what they did. At noon my half empty cart was gone and a full one in it's place. I stood there and unloaded a whole cart of polished aluminum fender well trip pieces and put then on a rack to be anodized that afternoon. The rest unloaded half cart a day and called work That plant is empty and for sale now.

I have inlaws that are retired and admit they "could do their quota in half a day" . Sad part is they get more retirement that we're now going to pay for then I did working doing a honest day's work in computer repair for a large recognized company.

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Atlantic Blue 06 CRD Limited (his)
Joined by a 2000 XJ Classic (hers)

The driving force for the Bankruptcy now- were investors - including some who had bought loans knowing Chrysler was in trouble - they bought 30 cents on the dollar and wanted the Government to pay them a profit.

but once it's in court the Investors vote - and over 90% had accepted the Governement offer initially - so they'll be back.

(but this will be a guideline for how GM is handled - because they're headed the same direction)

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2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

i talked to a lady that worked with one of the highe up people... she said they have been planning the re-org for a while and the thing that is killing them is the executives that no longer work there are still getting free cars and free insurance and all that jazz... they are going to talke all that away from them

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Trevor

'05 Limited CRD Inferno Red Pearl Coat
Home made provent installed @ 35443, SEGR installed @ 35466, Fumoto valve @ 37500, trans and transfer case skid, In tank pump installed @ 43500, Suncoast TC & Transgo Shift Kit @ 44730, EGT, Boost, Trans temp gauges, Samco hoses, Rebuilt Trans w/ HD454RFE kit @ 56K, Inmotion Stage 2 @ 56K

..to the taxpayers, even if they have to have Chrysler survive to do it.

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2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

In regard to the union bashing posts:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archiv ... 015760.php

BTW, how many paid holidays and vacation days does a German auto worker get?

Guess where the 40 hour work week came from.

Wobbly, if you're going to compare us to a socialist nation you must want us to be a socialist nation?

Well we ARENT (not yet but Barry's working HARD at it) a socialist nation, so you might as well stop with the comparisons.

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2006 KJ CRD Ltd - Suncoast, GDE Eco, EGR Delete, After market T-Stat, Skid Row skids, V6 airbox, 2.5" Turbo back
2005 KJ CRD Sport-Suncoast, Transco, GDE Hot-GDE Trans, EGR Delete, Skid Row skids, V6 airbox, 2.5" Turbo back, After market S-Stat
1987 Suzuki LWB Samurai -diesel powered, custom 4 link coil suspension 38.5 SX Swampers

The interesting part of New Chrysler is that the UAW is now on the board and they own a big chunk

- so if they have to cut - will they cut current workers? or retiree benefits?

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2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

Hmm..

Doesn't the union pick up the retirement for the workers? Not the manufacturer?

Just curious

The union is picking up the retirement benefits now, that was one of the big things that both the automakers AND the UAW actually agreed on and made happen. If not, GM would have dropped the benefits completely which was what the UAW was so upset about.

Did you have any rebuttal to the article or answers to my questions?

As regard socialism, the US practices socialism for Wall Street and the Military Industrial Complex. For average citizens, it's a form of semi-enlightened Darwinism as exemplified by the Katrina response.

While Unions (just like socialism and Communism) are a good idea in theory, and in the distant past did a lot of good for the working man, many have became too powerful as political entities. They certainly can not be blamed for the failure of American auto companies, but obviously have had a big part in their demise being that labor expenses are the highest cost of a car.

As a case in point I put myself through years of college in order to get a job in which I get pissed on, pooped on, bitten and spit on. I work 13 hours a night and sometimes don't get to eat lunch or take a five minute break during that time, not because I am not in a union, but because of the nature of the job and because I genuinely care for my critically ill patients. I could pay dues to the local health care workers union if I wanted, but why since my employer matches union wages. I work hard and get reasonably well paid. What chaps my gluteus maximus though, is that a kid out of high school, who can barely tie his shoe, makes more per hour than I do, for doing work that a trained monkey could do. He gets complete health insurance while I cannot even afford it, and I work in a hospital. I have seen the work ethic of the average UAW worker first hand and know what the job is worth.

Because of the ridiculous wages which I have to pay for on the sales lot, I can't afford a new car every three years like many auto workers can. If every industry in the country had workers making the same wages which UAW members do, everything would cost exponentially more that it already does. America would export nothing to the global market because of the extreme high price of production compared to other developed countries.

So yeah, the UAW was a good idea when it was born, but it has brought it's own demise as well as contributed to the demise of many automotive factories, because of greed.

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Manure green 2005 CRD sport4x4, GDE Hot tune, Cat Gut, OE skids, Draw tight hitch, Duramax lift pump, 160K on multiple varieties of fuel, XM radio, Escort live with Redline, fog light mod, GPS, Icom IC7000 all band radio call sign KC9QPF, Grabber AT2s on Soft 8s, FIA grill blanket.

.... and has members in both parties and therefore gets what the members want, a reasonable paycheck and reasonable benefits. There are other OK Trade Unions I work with that function as well. When a Union does not do like James P Hoffa and keep both sets of elected crooks in line, the elected crooks take advantage and only provide lip service to those who support them.
As we have seen through history, true hard line socialist/communist governments do not have or tolerate labor unions. The main function of a union should be collective bargaining for reasonable pay and benefits. Teamsters and other Trade Unions have done so and have members who are paid according to their productive values in most cases, but not all.

As far as the UAW goes, they are way over paid, get too many perks, and they could not run a Brothel with out screwing it up and driving away the clients.

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2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

Once, in an attempt to open myself to enlightenment, I asked a relative who was also a union member "do you like being in a union?"

Yes, he says.

Going against all predisposition to the contrary, I asked in my best genuinely curious and interested voice - "why?"

Imagine my inner voice when he replied:

"Because I can pretty much do whatever I want and screw off, and there's nothing they can do about it"

Hey, I tried.

Mark

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2005 Liberty CRD
2004.5 Cummins 5.9L TD, F1s, NV5600 6-speed in a '93 GMC Suburban