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Timing belt replacement
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=43238		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  flash7210 [ Sun May 17, 2009 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Timing belt replacement
I still have ~40k miles before my T-belt replacement is due but was
wondering who has done it already. Did you do it yourself?
Should the tensioner be replaced with the belt?
Do you really need all those special tools listed in the manual?

I was thinking about getting the belt and other related parts now before
those supplies dry up (you know, the whole bankruptcy bit).

I really dont see how all those tools are necessary. I mean, line up all the
timing marks, lock the camshafts together, and you should be good to go.
The only special tool I can see needing is the one for the tensioner.

Thoughts...?
Author:  RJM [ Sun May 17, 2009 8:31 am ]
Post subject: 
IMO you need the tools, unless your very inventive. personallly I would not attempt it without them.
Author:  CRD Joe [ Sun May 17, 2009 9:40 am ]
Post subject: 
This job is way to important to mess around with. Im going to find someone who has done it before and pay them!!!!!
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Sun May 17, 2009 11:46 am ]
Post subject: 
The gears on the camshafts are not pinned to the cams but instead are a tapered press fit (more or less). You will need the proper pins to hold the engine in position since the procedure is done with the crank at 90 deg past TDC so that when the cams are put in position you won't hit the valves to the pistons.

I would recommend to not do the T-belt procedure without the proper tools.
Author:  flash7210 [ Sun May 17, 2009 1:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
See, what I dont understand is why do you need any kind of pin to lock
the camshafts in place.
If you lock the camshaft gears to each other, they wont move.

Are you trying to say that if I lock the gears that the cams could still
possibly move? If so, I dont see how this method is creating any more
force on the cams that when in normal operation.

Really, it shouldn't matter if the if the engine is at TDC, BDC or anywhere
in between, as long as none of the shafts (cam, crank, or other) move
when you remove the timing belt, everything should go together just fine.

I guess in theory anyway.
Author:  flash7210 [ Sun May 17, 2009 1:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
See, the whole issue is about the tools.
If I dont have them or cant get them, what is the likelyhood that the local
shop has them or even knows to get them.

If my local Chrysler dealer closes, whom would I take it to...?

So, I guess the real question here is where to get the tools, and how
much are they?
Author:  RJM [ Sun May 17, 2009 1:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Don't panic, changing the belt is not that hard (if you have the right tools). There is a US member from in the tech section that has a set, I also have a set if all else fails, the shipping would be outragous to the US from Canada. If you attempt to do it without The miller set let us know how it goes. best to listen to MrMopar64 He knows what he is talking about!
Author:  Joe Romas [ Sun May 17, 2009 7:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Having done many VW diesel timing belts with only one camshaft that the pulley is not keyed to, and having the special jigs I always sweat till I hear it running without andy awfull noises :lol: I've not heard any yet and hopefully I've done my last VW timing belt :wink:

I would say yes it is possible to do without the special tools. But it's also possible you would be looking for a set of rocker arms too :shock: I helped out a fellow tdi owner on a glow plug problem and he said he was going to do the t belt without the tools. Last I heard he was looking for a better cylinder head then the first one he got :roll:
Author:  loric [ Mon May 18, 2009 7:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've done this job myself on my own CRD.
It's not hard if you've done timing belts before.

YOU DON'T NEED ANY SPECIAL TOOLS! Just be sure to mark the original settings of the pullies etc with a marker pen.

Seriously, the vast majority of cambelt changes on cars are done without 'special' tools. These tools only serve to make the job easier or faster. Of more benefit imo is to have an extra set of hands ready to hold the belt etc whilst you are fiddling with it...

e.g. I substituted allen (hex) keys in lieu of the cam locking pins - not really necessary tho - if you mark the cam gears and are careful.
The tensioner can be moved with a screwdriver/prybar - or you can easily find a pin type head for a 1/2" wrench to work.

The KJ CRD timing belt change is made easier too coz the crankshaft pulley is held on with the 4 or 6? bolts rather than the normal big crankshaft nut/bolt - so you don't need a rattle gun to get it off.

The hardest (longest) part of the whole job is removing/replacing accessories to get to the cambelt cover. (fan, fan shroud, acc belt stuff, alternator etc etc...)

If you have any queries, please feel free to PM me. I've posted some pics as well on the AJOR site (Australian KJ site).
Author:  RJM [ Tue May 19, 2009 7:56 am ]
Post subject: 
You can also remove your lug nuts with an adjustable wrench, it does work! I guess the question is why would you if you have a tire iron at your disposal?
Author:  loric [ Tue May 19, 2009 9:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Because it's a waste of money and material resources to buy tools that will be used maybe twice in a lifetime.
(unless you are going to share them around a CRD group).

The 'special' cam locking pins can be easily substituted with hex keys. Everybody has hex keys and you can use hex keys for all sorts of jobs. I guarantee the 'special' cam locking pins won't be used nearly as often.

The special tensioner wrench - same story.

The situation may be totally different if you are working a lot on CRDs and where the tool(s) will pay off. (and maybe not - the Jeep dealers here is Oz don't use those tools and they get the job done fine).
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Tue May 19, 2009 9:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Um lets not start a war here, I too will sub tools once I find out size that work. Someone was to give us a heads up on that. I tend to agree with pining cams and crank and mark pulleys. If the marks don't line up when the new belt is on then reinstall it. Whew, wasn't that easy?
Author:  loric [ Tue May 19, 2009 10:16 am ]
Post subject: 
For the cam lock pins i used 4, maybe 5mm hex keys?
First you line up the flex plate and pin-lock it (i think it was a 6mm key), then pull the threaded plugs on either side of the head you can stick in any hex key that fits snugly. Shim up the hexkey shaft with a bit of tape (the blank hole in the cam may be 5mm dia say, but the hole in the side of the head is like 8mm).

If i were to do this job again - i wouldn't bother with the cam lock pins. As long as you mark the cam gears etc you'll be fine.
The flexplate lock is handy tho - and easy to access.


Also - What the w'shop manual fails to indicate is that you can actually wind the inside cam on the tensioner such that the low side is touching the belt. This gives heaps of room to fit the belt easily.

Lastly, the job is a lot easier if you do the fan shroud mod first. And future acc belt changes will be made easier too.

Sorry if i came across as blunt before - i should make better use of these: :D
Author:  tonycrd [ Tue May 19, 2009 11:01 am ]
Post subject: 
In stead of Allen keys you can use metric size drills.

Their is no need to pin the camshafts when doing a belt change, so also no need to take of the alternator etc in order to be able to place the timing pins.

Why are there timing pins for the camshafts?

If you take out (!) the cams (during engine overhaul or something like that) you take of the gears. Since the gears have no splines or lockpin they can be fitted in any way on the cams. So then your timing is way of. You lock the cams with the pins in the correct manner, hold the gears lined up with the marker on the cilinderhead and then you torque them down. Nicely lined up.

Ok, so now when I change the timing belt do I need to take of the gears? No you don't. Line them up properly. I marked two theeth that were closest to eachother so I was darn sure the cams hadn't moved after I fitted the new belt.

So now my cams are still lined up like they were when my engine came out of the VM factory.

What you do need to do is:

Take out the mechanical fan (you'll need a 1" / 26mm spanner)

Replace the tensioner! (please please do, you will feel sooo bad if you have $3000 engine damage because you saved $30 for a new one...)

Replace the two idler wheels

Check your waterpump thoroughly, it's also driven by the T belt. If it makes funny noises/ leaks / or rotates heavy change it.

After fitting the new T-belt rotate the engine by hand several turns until all the markers line up. Now you are sure it's ok.

Us the FSM info on tensioning the belt.

Good luck!

(side note: funny how most of the people who never even seen the CRD's T-belt scream 'special tool needed' while the guys who actualy changed it didn't use any of them...no harm intended.) :)
Author:  AndySRT [ Tue May 19, 2009 11:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
I plan on taking up this project soon it cant be too differnt than doing the timing belt on my DOHC neon. do the cam gears or the engine have a TDC mark on them? where everything lines up when it is good? I would also recommend the water pump change, pulley change, and a new tensioner while you are in there.
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Wed May 20, 2009 2:06 am ]
Post subject: 
I have personally rebuilt at least a half dozen of these engines. There aren't any "specific" marks inside the timing cover to indicate where to line it up to. Yes you can sort of eyeball it, but if it's off the littlest bit you'll set a camshaft fault. Myself personally, i always use the tools. I would recommend it as a dealer will generally allow you to loan them (has been my personal experience) or you can buy the specific ones (not much).

At that point in ownership, a penny spent is a dollar saved in the long run...
Author:  CRD Joe [ Wed May 20, 2009 12:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
MrMopar64 wrote:
I have personally rebuilt at least a half dozen of these engines. There aren't any "specific" marks inside the timing cover to indicate where to line it up to. Yes you can sort of eyeball it, but if it's off the littlest bit you'll set a camshaft fault. Myself personally, i always use the tools. I would recommend it as a dealer will generally allow you to loan them (has been my personal experience) or you can buy the specific ones (not much).

At that point in ownership, a penny spent is a dollar saved in the long run...


Hey MM, these trucks are only 3.5 years old. Why are you rebuilding them? Shouldnt these motors go half a million miles with proper care? Who could have that kind of mileage on a 3.5 year old truck?
Author:  ATXKJ [ Thu May 21, 2009 1:23 am ]
Post subject: 
CRD Joe wrote:
Hey MM, these trucks are only 3.5 years old. Why are you rebuilding them? Shouldnt these motors go half a million miles with proper care? Who could have that kind of mileage on a 3.5 year old truck?


That would be because MM doesn't actually own a CRD - but he does have my dream job - he gets to dyno test all of the small diesels that Chrylser uses
it is however part time - because he's really a student - Mechanical Engineering - that's what I did - but the part-time jobs we got were like cleaning lab equipment - we never got to play with dynos or engines ....aaarrrggghhhh.

(oh yeah - and he got to drive the Diesel Wranglers - before they released them to Europe.......2x aaarrrggghhhh)
Author:  flash7210 [ Thu May 21, 2009 8:15 am ]
Post subject: 
MrMopar64 wrote:
I have personally rebuilt at least a half dozen of these engines. There aren't any "specific" marks inside the timing cover to indicate where to line it up to. Yes you can sort of eyeball it, but if it's off the littlest bit you'll set a camshaft fault. Myself personally, i always use the tools. I would recommend it as a dealer will generally allow you to loan them (has been my personal experience) or you can buy the specific ones (not much).

At that point in ownership, a penny spent is a dollar saved in the long run...


I'm pretty sure that my local dealer doesnt even know these tools exist.
Only one tech there even acknowledges the existence of a CRD.

For those who paid to have their T-belt replaced, how do you know they
used these tools? How do you know that they didn't just finish doing a T-
belt on an 04 Neon and just treated your CRD with the same method?

Thanks to those who described the procedures without using the special
tools. I agree that pinning the cams with the appropriate metric size tool
is the best way to go. This gives me the confidence to do it my self when time
comes, provided parts are still available. (the local dealer says the belt and
other parts are not available anywhere in the US)
Author:  tonycrd [ Thu May 21, 2009 2:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
You can get them of E-bay...new. Look for Cherokee KJ.

Or I could send you a set...

Or you could probably get one from Gates or another aftermarket brand.
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