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oil in turbo............now what
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Author:  vegiH [ Sun May 24, 2009 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  oil in turbo............now what
hi all just touching base on crd.got 4 new glow plugs,new head gasket,timing belt,and now told i need a turbo.Where can I find one on the cheap?this is getting pricey,and I need to know what it should cost me,anyone with input thanks..........H
Author:  kjfishman [ Sun May 24, 2009 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: oil in turbo............now what
vegiH wrote:
hi all just touching base on crd.got 4 new glow plugs,new head gasket,timing belt,and now told i need a turbo.Where can I find one on the cheap?this is getting pricey,and I need to know what it should cost me,anyone with input thanks..........H


Wow, what happened to your motor? How many miles you have? Sorry can't help you with the parts just curious what happened. Hope you get things worked out.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Sun May 24, 2009 12:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
What makes you think that you need a new turbo? I can't imagine how running WVO would cause head gasket or glowplug problems.
Author:  vegiH [ Sun May 24, 2009 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  NOT WVO RELATED
What happened was I got a glowplug code,went to get glowplugs done and #1 broke off in the head.Upon further investigation I have learned I am not the only one who has been down that road(bosch changed to semi-metallic because of this).Couldn't drill out the little nub,so off came the head,with all its glory of purge selinoids and 3 port valves.We were planning on doing Timing belt while in engine that deep,but the turbo is a surprise.We have 84,000 miles on it so it is viable,as previous owner commuted,and I believe it was origally a company car for 50,000 miles,all in the greater boston area.My diesel shop says there is oil in the turbo,alot of oil.I am aware of the oil in the tube leading into the turbo,but am baffled as to why it would be running great prior to the glowplug issue,but now on the brink of chaos? Is there someone on here who has been thru turbo failure,and clarify being bad to this particular turbo.I don't know jack about variable turbos,but have 12 years experience driving OTR trucks,with big international and cummins inlines and V-8s diesels so I know mechanical diesels quite well.Also how much is this gonna cost me,and does anyone on here have a good one for sale (I will pay overnight shipping). I love this little jeep,and is my wifes first diesel,but is getting a little pricey,and taken money from my Excursion mods...........any input on this matter? Geordi still have a turbo?........thanks...H
Author:  Turbo Tim [ Sun May 24, 2009 11:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Is the turbo off the vehicle? If so reach in and spin the shaft. Next feel how much play it has. There should be just a teeny-weeny amount of play, up-and-down. If there is too much play then the turbine wheel could touch the snail-shell housing and damage it. This would also be your source of oil.
If your not sure, see if there is a turbo rebuild shop in your area. This is much cheaper than a new unit and they can look it over for you.

I know it has happened before but 84K miles and this turbo “Should” be just fine.
(My 1999 Dodge Cummins has 225K + on the original turbo and still spinning just fine).

Look it over closely first before you spend any more money.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Sun May 24, 2009 11:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Although they occasionally do fail, I really find it hard to believe that the turbo is bad unless you sucked a chunk of glowplug through it. Oil does show up in the turbos of all CRDs because of the POS CCV. I would do as TurboTim suggests and check the endplay on the shaft. If it spins freely I'd put it back on and run with it. If it is indeed bad, its an easy change out, but if its good, then you've saved several hundred bucks. I think that Geordi is the only forum member who had a verifiable turbo failure, and it completely grenaded.
Author:  geordi [ Mon May 25, 2009 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  I'm not dead yet...
Yea, color me unimpressed by your mechanic. At the moment, with what he is saying about the turbo, I think he has discovered a catastrophic failure of the bottom-line resistance subsystem. In other words, there isn't anything in operation to prevent his own bottom line from running away with your wallet. :lol:

Do like Turbo Tim suggested. When my turbo failed (and the one other member here who also lost a turbo at about the same time, I thought his did a similar thing, IIRC) I was at 60+ mph and about 3 miles from starting off. It was a 32 degree morning and the engine was STONE cold as I hadn't had the heater plugged in. The turbine side shaft SNAPPED and oil started being dutifully pumped into the exhaust line.

That said, the intake side had it's own healthy amount of oil completely coating the inside of the air hoses. This is a NORMAL THING and your mechanic *should* know it. I suspect he is hoping YOU don't, so he can NOT replace your turbo, and just charge you the full cost for a good cleaning.

Its not nice, but it happens.

For everyone wondering what has been happening with my CRD and it's engine problems... Yea... Me too. I'm almost done with the quarter of Grad School, and just made my THIRD payment without driving my CRD. At the end of this coming week, I will be done and going home, and I WILL find out WTF has been taking so long. This got to the level of stupid a LONG time ago, now it is just ridiculous. I'm SO VERY HAPPY that Chrysler decided to not honor my warranty, and is now in bankruptcy so they are protected from having to ever pay anything for this. That is DRIPPING with sarcasm, if you cant tell. *rant*
Author:  Silverdiesel [ Mon May 25, 2009 3:12 am ]
Post subject: 
I have a mechanic friend with 40 years experience and even he had to learn about this "thin coating" of oil/ccv "mud" as there are not that many light diesels 'cept ours and the famous VW late models TDI's. We even took off my intercooler to FCV hose and he could not believe the wetness/gunkyness.
A ccv cleanup is on my short list like a provent.

Hey Geordi, give your mechanic heck-- This forum gives you the opportunity to be knowledgeable.
Author:  vegiH [ Mon May 25, 2009 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  thanks guys
how much is little bit of play(tenths or hundredths),and anyone know what is a good price IF it needs one?
Author:  nursecosmo [ Mon May 25, 2009 9:52 am ]
Post subject: 
If the vanes don't bump against the housing, you're cherry.
Author:  ATXKJ [ Mon May 25, 2009 1:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Description Year MSRP Price Core Price Your Price
turbocharger, liberty 05-06 $1,195.00 $879.45

Fuel system - Fuel induction - Turbo charger - Turbocharger

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=getJointLocator&siteid=214583
Author:  DarbyWalters [ Mon May 25, 2009 2:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
I was the one who had a glowplug breakoff at 8400 miles. Since it was so new I insisted on a complete new unit...and they did just that. Now 64,000 miles and running...
Author:  vegiH [ Tue May 26, 2009 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  going to the shop this afternoon
getting ready to go to the diesel shop today,to check end play of turbo for myself.let me get this right ,oil 1) WILL always be in the turbo,2) This unit has a labirynthine style seal, 3)If its not touching during spinning its still good.If there are any other things ANYONE can think of fire away.I will be leaving @ 1pm eastern time so before then would be great.....................thanks for all the help,hopefully get this on the road so I can start making money with my excursion(towing fire wood,light trucking,and taking money from fools at the "local dragstrip".).........H
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Tue May 26, 2009 11:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Right from the FSM,they don't list any turbo specs since rebuilding is not recommended.
Quote:
The most common turbocharger failure is bearing
failure related to repeated hot shutdowns with inadequate
“cool-down” periods. A sudden engine shut
down after prolonged operation will result in the
transfer of heat from the turbine section of the turbocharger
to the bearing housing. This causes the oil
to overheat and break down, which causes bearing
and shaft damage the next time the vehicle is
started.


Funny thing is I was just on the phone talking with my uncle who has been driving OTR trucking for 40 years and is a independent driver and he does all the maintenance himself(when business is slow he works for a Cummins repair shop) and laughed when I told him you guys think a "little" play is okay for a turbo and oil in the turbo is "okay".I also have worked on big TD in the military(9 years,Cummins and Detroit) and any oil in the turbo and a new engine was installed,any play in the turbo a new engine was installed.
Author:  geordi [ Tue May 26, 2009 1:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
New engines getting installed at a rate like that can be easily explained: It is the MILITARY. If you can't have ULTIMATE confidence in your equipment, people die. Its just that simple.

As for the oil in the turbo, it is coming from the emissions BS BEFORE the turbo inlet that mil-spec vehicles don't have. Remove the CCV from the intake line, and our oil should go away too. If there is oil in the turbine side, then you do have a leak, but you would also be blowing blue smoke.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Tue May 26, 2009 3:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
tjkj2002 wrote:
Right from the FSM,they don't list any turbo specs since rebuilding is not recommended.
Quote:
The most common turbocharger failure is bearing
failure related to repeated hot shutdowns with inadequate
“cool-down” periods. A sudden engine shut
down after prolonged operation will result in the
transfer of heat from the turbine section of the turbocharger
to the bearing housing. This causes the oil
to overheat and break down, which causes bearing
and shaft damage the next time the vehicle is
started.


Funny thing is I was just on the phone talking with my uncle who has been driving OTR trucking for 40 years and is a independent driver and he does all the maintenance himself(when business is slow he works for a Cummins repair shop) and laughed when I told him you guys think a "little" play is okay for a turbo and oil in the turbo is "okay".

Well, it sounds like that fantastic mechanical gene of yours runs in the family. If there is no play in the end shaft of a new turbo, how do you think that oil is getting to the bearing surfaces? There also has to be play on a cold turbo to accommodate for heat expansion. Can you say DUH!!! If you find oil in the turbo of a OTR truck it is a problem because most of them do not have the turbo sucking oil out of the CCV tube, and the ones that do have a PCV, have a functioning PCV and not the piece of crap which the CRD uses. When those big turbos have oil in them it is usually because of turbine failure and there is not sufficient boost pressure to overcome the oil pressure. The VM Motori is not an OTR engine. They all have oil in the turbos from day one. They all have end play in the turbo shaft from day one.

tjkj2002 wrote:
I also have worked on big TD in the military(9 years,Cummins and Detroit) and any oil in the turbo and a new engine was installed,any play in the turbo a new engine was installed.


That sounds about right for a military "mechanic". If you don't understand it, just get a new one. It's called "shotgun mechanics", and is part of the reason for the ridiculous maintenance costs of the military. My grandfather told me about how the mechanics at the Navy bases he was stationed at in WW2 used to fix their Jeeps. For even the smallest repair like spark plug replacement, they would drive them off the end of the pier and order a new one. They wrote them off as "lost in combat". It seems that the same mindset is still hard at work in todays Military. How wasteful to replace a perfectly good engine because of the failure of a small part like a turbo charger. I would not have even admitted to that and then go on to call myself a "mechanic"
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Tue May 26, 2009 4:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
nursecosmo wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
Right from the FSM,they don't list any turbo specs since rebuilding is not recommended.
Quote:
The most common turbocharger failure is bearing
failure related to repeated hot shutdowns with inadequate
“cool-down” periods. A sudden engine shut
down after prolonged operation will result in the
transfer of heat from the turbine section of the turbocharger
to the bearing housing. This causes the oil
to overheat and break down, which causes bearing
and shaft damage the next time the vehicle is
started.


Funny thing is I was just on the phone talking with my uncle who has been driving OTR trucking for 40 years and is a independent driver and he does all the maintenance himself(when business is slow he works for a Cummins repair shop) and laughed when I told him you guys think a "little" play is okay for a turbo and oil in the turbo is "okay".

Well, it sounds like that fantastic mechanical gene of yours runs in the family. If there is no play in the end shaft of a new turbo, how do you think that oil is getting to the bearing surfaces? There also has to be play on a cold turbo to accommodate for heat expansion. Can you say DUH!!! If you find oil in the turbo of a OTR truck it is a problem because most of them do not have the turbo sucking oil out of the CCV tube, and the ones that do have a PCV, have a functioning PCV and not the piece of crap which the CRD uses. When those big turbos have oil in them it is usually because of turbine failure and there is not sufficient boost pressure to overcome the oil pressure. The VM Motori is not an OTR engine. They all have oil in the turbos from day one. They all have end play in the turbo shaft from day one.

tjkj2002 wrote:
I also have worked on big TD in the military(9 years,Cummins and Detroit) and any oil in the turbo and a new engine was installed,any play in the turbo a new engine was installed.


That sounds about right for a military "mechanic". If you don't understand it, just get a new one. It's called "shotgun mechanics", and is part of the reason for the ridiculous maintenance costs of the military. My grandfather told me about how the mechanics at the Navy bases he was stationed at in WW2 used to fix their Jeeps. For even the smallest repair like spark plug replacement, they would drive them off the end of the pier and order a new one. They wrote them off as "lost in combat". It seems that the same mindset is still hard at work in todays Military. How wasteful to replace a perfectly good engine because of the failure of a small part like a turbo charger. I would not have even admitted to that and then go on to call myself a "mechanic"
Well if you want crap that just flings oil everywhere it's not supposed to be,well you can have it,good luck.Oh and if you have play that is measured in hundreths in turbo bearings you got problems,just like any other bearing.Those bearings are not like the "bearings" for your crank mains or rod journals that need a gap for oil.Oh and as per the technical manuals for the Tactical vehicles I have worked on with turbo diesels when any play or oil is found in the turbo the whole engine must be replaced.This not WWII and parts are not easy to come by and approval is not easy for a new engine,specific reasons need to be there for it as per regulations that are outlined in the tech manuals.Now when I was in Iraq or Afghanistan things where different due to lack of parts,mostly used superglue and JB Weld to fix most vehicles but when getting shot at longevity is not a concern.I did understand the diesel engines I worked on,kinda needed to since I rebuilt/installed them along with Allison transmissions and t-cases for 3 years and was instructed by both Cummins and Detroit engineers as well as OshKosh and Allison engineers. But your not going to listen and just argue back anyways so who gives a darn anyway.Good luck and thanks for keeping the economy alive with all the replacement parts you guys are buying to keep your unreliable diesels alive,or barely alive.Next time you might want to try a Cummins and a little less techno gizmo loaded diesel engine,better off in the long run.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Tue May 26, 2009 6:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
LOL. Last time I checked you can't buy a Cummins equiped truck that dosen't have a VGT turbo charger, EGR valve, DPF, and electronically controled injection with a Bosch CP3 and Bosch injectors just like our little Italian beasts of burden.
Author:  tjkj2002 [ Tue May 26, 2009 6:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
nursecosmo wrote:
LOL. Last time I checked you can't buy a Cummins equiped truck that dosen't have a VGT turbo charger, EGR valve, DPF, and electronically controled injection with a Bosch CP3 and Bosch injectors just like our little Italian beasts of burden.
Think older like 4BT or the 12V 6BT's,can't beat'em and takes alot to kill them.
Author:  KJ 119 [ Tue May 26, 2009 9:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
OK........................On a lighter note,before I ordered my Samco hoses,I went outside to check out my old hoses and they were loaded with oil.Immediately ordered a set from Turbowholesaler.Is it too late to do as geordi said with the ccv"more info please".
Or should I just go ahead and get a new engine on order :shock: :lol:
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