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The real problem with EGR and oil mist from the CCV is TOGETHER THEY MAKE A HARD CARBON LIKE BUILD UP IN YOUR INTAKE. They mix like concrete. Remove one or the other and no cement :lol:

GDE's tune removes EGR. As far as oil clogging your inter cooler I'm not so sure it's a big problem. I've owned two VW tdi's and both would collect a little oil in the inter cooler. The 96 didn't have EGR and there was never a problem. The 99.5 had EGR and at 60k miles the intake manifold has half plugged with crusty black stuff and again at 120k.

Some here think the oil is messing up turbo's. I don't think so. I have a provent setting in the garage because in less then 8k miles the filter on it was clogged. So I guess I agree with your dad that is not necessary if the EGR is taken out of the equation. Humor him, I would guess he and I are about the same age but my son is 33 possibly older then you and listens to me more as he getts older :lol:

But the GDE tune is fantastic :lol:

The only thing I've put my foot down on is replacing the stock muffler with a Magnaflow #12226.

My truck has a Provent. I was wondering wether you guys felt like te provent does a good enough job or wether you'd EHM it?

Most find the stink of the EHM offensive :lol:

With regard to the EGR valve opening, the only time the surge detection is
active is when you're running at peak boost levels (100% pedal) and you not
only take your foot off the pedal instantly but the engine speed falls as
well - for instance, WOT in 1st-3rd gear with converter unlocked. When the
EGR valve does open, it's only for 0.5 seconds and in this instance, due to
the pressure differential, the boost is actually flowing from the intake
into the exhaust manifold and not the other way, so there's no real issue
with soot entering the intake.

The condition of caking in the intake manifold is due generally to the use
of EGR during high load/high temperature operating points which is necessary
to meet US emissions and hence why it's active in the OEM calibration. It
forms when the intake air temperatures are very high (almost 100C) and the
soot from the exhaust combines with the hot aluminum intake manifold and the
little bit of oil that's in suspension in the air. It's more of a wet gunky
paste when it does form and, with some elbow grease, can be cleaned out if
it's an issue. However, it's not an issue with the GDE calibration since we
don't ever use the EGR valve in normal driving conditions.

Based on our experience over several tens of thousands of miles, we've seen
a miniscule to none accumulation of soot - for example, after 30,000k miles
the boost sensor in the intake is still clean, with only a very slight oily
film on it which is normal. There shouldn't be a need for fitting an
aftermarket separation system. The OEM separator on the engine is designed
to see a certain pressure differential in order to operate and control the
crankcase vent flow and separation, and we've seen a few isolated cases of
aftermarket systems disturbing this differential and lead to higher
crankcase pressures which isn't good for ring sealing and gasket life.

We recommend to leave the OEM system in place for 2 or 3 oil changes and see
what your results are. If you're still swayed to installing an aftermarket
solution, then such it is. However, for what it's worth, our two test
vehicles having accumulated about 60k miles combined haven't shown any
indication that the OEM system is inadequate.

Regarding your ECUs, we'll be looking for them on Monday. As soon as they
are flashed and shipped back out, we'll send you a note to let you know.

I hope this information has been a little bit more informative for you - if
you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks for all of the replies! Here is what GDE has to say about the issue (keeping in mind that the gunk is only created by the COMBINATION of soot & oil):

Any recommendations on how to best clean the intake hoses, etc.?

stoutdog wrote:

Sarcastic answer:

1. Take off the oil soaked hoses.
2. Throw them in the trash. They are likely oil soaked and weak-- waiting to blow open some night on a lonely highway leaving you with no boost.
3. Buy a steel tubed intake or better hoses. I was not going to shell out $165 bucks out of warranty for one OEM hose (there are two) every time it happened-- not when getting both tubed cost only a tad more than one crap OEM rubber hose. Or.. you could buy a provent to help stop it from getting oil soaked...

BTW, the Provent has a spring loaded blow-off valve that is supposed to vent to atmo if it gets too pressurized.

Real answer:

1. Shop paper towels to wipe out the oil from the tubes.
2. Hose out the intake tubes.
3. More shop towels to get more of the residue. Repeat 2 and 3. (Maybe use a little dish washing soap)?
4. Air dry.

Sounds easy enough. What about the intercooler? Should I even bother?

There is one other thing to consider with CCV system. The jeep CRD only takes 6.4 quarts of oil (I measure it when I change the oil). If you put in the 7 quarts or so it takes to have the oil read "full" on the dipstick, this extra oil will be quickly blown into the manifold. With 6.4 quarts, my dipstick indicates the oil level is between "full" and "add oil". I found this out quickly after my first oil change on the CRD.

Author:	stoutdog [ Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Provent/GDE
My father is a little hesitant about installing the Provent CCV filter on my Jeep... He claims that the Provent was a pre-GDE solution to the problems with the MAP/dirty hoses/shortened lifespan of the CRD. Am I correct in assuming the GDE does nothing to fix the problems with our CCV? I've always assumed that the SEGR (mostly fixed by GDE) and the Provent were two entirely separate solutions to one problem. Both are necessary to fix it completely, no? This is his response: [color=red]Crank case ventilation (CCV) has been around since like the 1960's and all it does is circulate airborne oil fine mist back into the intake system so pulled into the engine's combustion chambers and burned. In the REALLY bad old days they used to do that by plumbing the CCV pipe back in front of (upstream of) the air filter so the oil fine mist blew thru your air filter with predictable results to the life of your air filter. Later vehicles, like the Jeep, plumb the CCV pipe downstream of the air filter where all it does is deposit some oil film on the inside of hoses, no harm there, and on sensors, no harm either as long as its just oil and not the crud I cleaned of the MAP. Given the quantities of oil the Provent is reported to capture vs. the miles driven to capture the amount of oil you are capturing is the equivlent of a drop of oil every 10 miles or so and I just don't see how that can be a problem. Bottom line is a bit of oil, not soot, on the inside of hoses and the MAP and other sensors is not a problem in my opinion." Is this correct? Thanks in advance!

Author:	tonycrd [ Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:
Well..that's one way to look at it. But that 'drop' of oil also goes through your intercooler...and intake manifold. Making a big oily mess after 100k miles... I fitted a provent.

Author:	KJ 119 [ Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:
I don't think the GDE tune would stop the oil from entering your intake(where oil is NOT needed). I would try to talk him into it,for he WILL be amazed at the oil that is collected. My only regret is not Proventing sooner.

Author:	ATXKJ [ Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:
The SEGR/GDE and Provent are fixes to 2 different problems The SEGR, GDE reprogram and ORM - address the EGR system which dumps exhaust and therefore burned carbon into the intake. The Provent/ EHM - address the CCV recycle system which dumps oil into the intake. The oil and the exhaust are separate systems - but neither belongs in the intake manifold (well at least for off road - the EGR is a federally mandated emission requirement and should not be modified for on-road usage) The Provent is perfectly legal - although Jeep might question it on warranty work - it's a dealer installed option for Fords. The difference between the CCV on my 67 Camaro and the Jeep is that the Camaro burns all of the fumes, it may trivially effect power - but not a big deal - on the Jeep - the distance from the CCV through the intercooler loop causes the oil to condense out and settle in the intake - and about 1 oz / 1000 miles, which over the life of the Jeep will clog the intake and decrease the effectiveness of the Intercooler.

Author:	Joe Romas [ Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:
The real problem with EGR and oil mist from the CCV is TOGETHER THEY MAKE A HARD CARBON LIKE BUILD UP IN YOUR INTAKE. They mix like concrete. Remove one or the other and no cement GDE's tune removes EGR. As far as oil clogging your inter cooler I'm not so sure it's a big problem. I've owned two VW tdi's and both would collect a little oil in the inter cooler. The 96 didn't have EGR and there was never a problem. The 99.5 had EGR and at 60k miles the intake manifold has half plugged with crusty black stuff and again at 120k. Some here think the oil is messing up turbo's. I don't think so. I have a provent setting in the garage because in less then 8k miles the filter on it was clogged. So I guess I agree with your dad that is not necessary if the EGR is taken out of the equation. Humor him, I would guess he and I are about the same age but my son is 33 possibly older then you and listens to me more as he getts older But the GDE tune is fantastic

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Provent/GDE http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=45282	Page 1 of 2

Author:	stoutdog [ Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:
Joe Romas wrote: The real problem with EGR and oil mist from the CCV is TOGETHER THEY MAKE A HARD CARBON LIKE BUILD UP IN YOUR INTAKE. They mix like concrete. Remove one or the other and no cement GDE's tune removes EGR. As far as oil clogging your inter cooler I'm not so sure it's a big problem. I've owned two VW tdi's and both would collect a little oil in the inter cooler. The 96 didn't have EGR and there was never a problem. The 99.5 had EGR and at 60k miles the intake manifold has half plugged with crusty black stuff and again at 120k. Some here think the oil is messing up turbo's. I don't think so. I have a provent setting in the garage because in less then 8k miles the filter on it was clogged. So I guess I agree with your dad that is not necessary if the EGR is taken out of the equation. Humor him, I would guess he and I are about the same age but my son is 33 possibly older then you and listens to me more as he getts older But the GDE tune is fantastic Joe, thanks. This is probably exactly what my father wants to hear. I'm only 22, so your son has me beat. I usually do take my dad's advice, particularly when it comes to cars. If what you say is true, that the oil is only a problem when the EGR is fully functional, then I would definitely not bother with a Provent. The only thing I've put my foot down on is replacing the stock muffler with a Magnaflow #12226. Keep the opinions coming!

Author:	Joe Romas [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:23 am ]
Post subject:
stoutdog wrote: The only thing I've put my foot down on is replacing the stock muffler with a Magnaflow #12226. I'm thinking along those lines too

Author:	CRD Joe [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:
My truck has a Provent. I was wondering wether you guys felt like te provent does a good enough job or wether you'd EHM it?

Author:	Joe Romas [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:
CRD Joe wrote: My truck has a Provent. I was wondering wether you guys felt like te provent does a good enough job or wether you'd EHM it? Most find the stink of the EHM offensive

Author:	yakers [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:
Joe Romas wrote: Most find the stink of the EHM offensive I didn't but my wife did. Thus a Provent

Author:	CRD Joe [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:
I have an EH on my TDI jetta. Got no problems with the smell. I want to know whether an EH would be better for the engine

Author:	warp2diesel [ Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:11 am ]
Post subject:	Quantity of oil recovered by Oil Separator
Provent is a good mass production Oil separator. I did not opt to spring for the Provent and made my own. I had no problem with Ice build up even at -15F last winter. Here is photo documentation of oil kept out of the intake by my Homemade unit. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=45166 I am sure Provent will recover a comparable amount and keep it out of the turbo, inter cooler and intake. All of my CCV diesels I have owned over the years had what I consider excess Oil in the Intake. You can use the Bean Counter Rationalization and rely on the Bean Counter Developed Valve Cover Puck that does nothing more than keep the engine from running away and sucking oil out of the crankcase. Or, shell out for a Provent or do like I did and fab your own. Years ago on the VW 1.5L Diesel they had a recall to fix run away, they did not care about the partial quart of oil that found it's self into the intake and burned up in the engine leaving the detergent deposits behind. My photo documented evidence is in the link for all to see and do what they wish. Water in bottom of cup is clear and free of any rust or other debris. EHM will put the oil in the cup onto the Road or Driveway, but not fry the Turbo Hoses or Inter Cooler with hot oil, or cause Runaway. FYI: I don't drink Kool Aid.

Author:	stoutdog [ Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:
Thanks for all of the replies! Here is what GDE has to say about the issue (keeping in mind that the gunk is only created by the COMBINATION of soot & oil): Quote: With regard to the EGR valve opening, the only time the surge detection is active is when you're running at peak boost levels (100% pedal) and you not only take your foot off the pedal instantly but the engine speed falls as well - for instance, WOT in 1st-3rd gear with converter unlocked. When the EGR valve does open, it's only for 0.5 seconds and in this instance, due to the pressure differential, the boost is actually flowing from the intake into the exhaust manifold and not the other way, so there's no real issue with soot entering the intake. The condition of caking in the intake manifold is due generally to the use of EGR during high load/high temperature operating points which is necessary to meet US emissions and hence why it's active in the OEM calibration. It forms when the intake air temperatures are very high (almost 100C) and the soot from the exhaust combines with the hot aluminum intake manifold and the little bit of oil that's in suspension in the air. It's more of a wet gunky paste when it does form and, with some elbow grease, can be cleaned out if it's an issue. However, it's not an issue with the GDE calibration since we don't ever use the EGR valve in normal driving conditions. Based on our experience over several tens of thousands of miles, we've seen a miniscule to none accumulation of soot - for example, after 30,000k miles the boost sensor in the intake is still clean, with only a very slight oily film on it which is normal. There shouldn't be a need for fitting an aftermarket separation system. The OEM separator on the engine is designed to see a certain pressure differential in order to operate and control the crankcase vent flow and separation, and we've seen a few isolated cases of aftermarket systems disturbing this differential and lead to higher crankcase pressures which isn't good for ring sealing and gasket life. We recommend to leave the OEM system in place for 2 or 3 oil changes and see what your results are. If you're still swayed to installing an aftermarket solution, then such it is. However, for what it's worth, our two test vehicles having accumulated about 60k miles combined haven't shown any indication that the OEM system is inadequate. Regarding your ECUs, we'll be looking for them on Monday. As soon as they are flashed and shipped back out, we'll send you a note to let you know. I hope this information has been a little bit more informative for you - if you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Long story short, the EGR only opens if you are 1) drag racing, WOT and 2) taking your foot completely off the pedal from WOT. Even then, the gases are blown into the exhaust, as in, backwards... No soot enters the intake system. Seeing as how I am waiting for my ECU to be tuned right now, this means I have no need for a CCV filter. The plan now is to clean out the intake hoses/intercooler as best I can and not worry about little bit of oil that might accumulate and burn up. Any other opinions? Any recommendations on how to best clean the intake hoses, etc.?

Author:	Pablo [ Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:
stoutdog wrote: Thanks for all of the replies! Here is what GDE has to say about the issue (keeping in mind that the gunk is only created by the COMBINATION of soot & oil): Any recommendations on how to best clean the intake hoses, etc.? Sarcastic answer: 1. Take off the oil soaked hoses. 2. Throw them in the trash. They are likely oil soaked and weak-- waiting to blow open some night on a lonely highway leaving you with no boost. 3. Buy a steel tubed intake or better hoses. I was not going to shell out $165 bucks out of warranty for one OEM hose (there are two) every time it happened-- not when getting both tubed cost only a tad more than one crap OEM rubber hose. Or.. you could buy a provent to help stop it from getting oil soaked... BTW, the Provent has a spring loaded blow-off valve that is supposed to vent to atmo if it gets too pressurized. Real answer: 1. Shop paper towels to wipe out the oil from the tubes. 2. Hose out the intake tubes. 3. More shop towels to get more of the residue. Repeat 2 and 3. (Maybe use a little dish washing soap)? 4. Air dry.

Author:	gmctd [ Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:
If CCV means crank case ventilation, what, then, does PCV mean? CCV is Closed Crankcase Ventilation, a completely different concept than the '60's acronym and concept PCV, for Positive Crankcase Ventilation, crankcase being a one-concept word - PCV utilizes a filtered breather port on one valve cover, usually connected to a filter in the air filter housing, with a 'nuther port on the opposite valve cover connecting the crankcase directly to the hi-vacuum intake on those other engines - this allows positive flow-thru from atmosphere to evacuate the oily vapors for consumption in the cylinders, neb'mind about creating any vacuum in the cc - the PCV valve limits applied vacuum at incident of extremely hi vacuum, such as decelerating from freeway speeds down an off-ramp to a traffic lite at the underpass to prevent pulling excessive raw oil outta the contributing valve cover - the longest cc effluent path, valve-cover outlet to intake, is usually less than 10", so not much opportunity for liquid mist to precipitate out of the hot vapors - not only that, but in those systems the fuel charge is trucked in with the intake air charge, thus having a solvent-like tendency to continually wash the oily mess from the intake plenum - CCV, used on Diesels, has no port to atmosphere, instead allowing any vacuum developed in the turbo inlet tract to maintain a constant slight vacuum in the crankcase, which allows the pistons to reciprocate easier, also aiding crankshaft seals and other sealing areas - any oily vapors from super-heated (avg EGT 650F) engine oil and all piston-ring blowby is drawn into the compressor inlet, heading for the cylinders - however, the hot oily cc effluent path is at least 12" from the CCV puck to the compressor inlet duct, another ~6" thru the centrifugal compressor (and, we all know what centrifugal forces do to heavier components in gasses, right?), another ~24" thru the outlet hose to the charge air cooler inlet, another ~24" thru the cac, another ~ 12" from the cac outlet to the intake manifold inlet, thence thru the plenum and finally to the cylinders - quite an extended voyage, indeed Now, far be it from me to nitpick, but it seemeth to moi that, in a crankcase-effluent distance-traveled competition, the KJ CRD would win, hands down, over a KJ with one of those other* engines - not only that, but, iirc, Science 101 was fairly explicit in explaining many of the laws we must needs live by, one of which details how the process of removing heat from a gaseous vapor usually results in any liquids in that vapor(s) quickly condensing and precipitating out, coalescing amongst the walls along the system containment path Thus and so, it would seem very unwise to compare a '60's PCV system for gassers (patooie!) to a '90's and beyond CCV system for Diesel engines, being two very different implementations of a concept, particularly considering the distances between crankcase port and combustion chamber in each system - it is, therefore, my considered opinion that a charge-air cooled turboDiesel engine absolutely requires a Provent\Racor\equiv filter be installed to augment the factory CCV system - unless, that, is, you're anticpating really hard times ahead, and those oil reserves in yer intercooler will sure come in handy when the economy goes bust...........................

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Author:	stoutdog [ Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:
Pablo wrote: stoutdog wrote: Thanks for all of the replies! Here is what GDE has to say about the issue (keeping in mind that the gunk is only created by the COMBINATION of soot & oil): Any recommendations on how to best clean the intake hoses, etc.? Sarcastic answer: 1. Take off the oil soaked hoses. 2. Throw them in the trash. They are likely oil soaked and weak-- waiting to blow open some night on a lonely highway leaving you with no boost. 3. Buy a steel tubed intake or better hoses. I was not going to shell out $165 bucks out of warranty for one OEM hose (there are two) every time it happened-- not when getting both tubed cost only a tad more than one crap OEM rubber hose. Or.. you could buy a provent to help stop it from getting oil soaked... BTW, the Provent has a spring loaded blow-off valve that is supposed to vent to atmo if it gets too pressurized. Real answer: 1. Shop paper towels to wipe out the oil from the tubes. 2. Hose out the intake tubes. 3. More shop towels to get more of the residue. Repeat 2 and 3. (Maybe use a little dish washing soap)? 4. Air dry. Sounds easy enough. What about the intercooler? Should I even bother? P.S. I only have 26k on the CRD (bought it used). The OEM hoses are probably coated, but hopefully not ruined. If they ever do blow, I will purchase a set of Samcos. No sense in spending the money unless it's necessary....

Author:	Uffe [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:41 am ]
Post subject:
GDE wrote: With regard to the EGR valve opening, the only time the surge detection is active is when you're running at peak boost levels (100% pedal) and you not only take your foot off the pedal instantly but the engine speed falls as well - for instance, WOT in 1st-3rd gear with converter unlocked. When the EGR valve does open, it's only for 0.5 seconds and in this instance, due to the pressure differential, the boost is actually flowing from the intake into the exhaust manifold and not the other way, so there's no real issue with soot entering the intake. So the turbo is using its inertia to briefly blow a bit harder than its power source. I doubt an electrical motor on the EGR system can open and close that fast. Isn't a turbo built with a little as possible intertia to spool up fast?

Author:	Pablo [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:38 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: Sounds easy enough. What about the intercooler? Should I even bother? Me, well... I did not bother. From what I can see it is a bit of a pain to get the inner cooler out and with only 26,000 miles you might not want to mess with it yet. If you do, you can put some bio-diesel or simple green and water in there and swoosh it around and let it sit for a bit... then drain it, rinse it out (maybe with a little bit of soap and water), finally just water.. and then let it air dry some more. If you use a flammable solvent of any kind (carb cleaner) you want to flush it out with water and let it air dry before you hook it back up (or it may go boom).

Author:	wolcott [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:
There is one other thing to consider with CCV system. The jeep CRD only takes 6.4 quarts of oil (I measure it when I change the oil). If you put in the 7 quarts or so it takes to have the oil read "full" on the dipstick, this extra oil will be quickly blown into the manifold. With 6.4 quarts, my dipstick indicates the oil level is between "full" and "add oil". I found this out quickly after my first oil change on the CRD.

Author:	Joe Romas [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:
wolcott wrote: There is one other thing to consider with CCV system. The jeep CRD only takes 6.4 quarts of oil (I measure it when I change the oil). If you put in the 7 quarts or so it takes to have the oil read "full" on the dipstick, this extra oil will be quickly blown into the manifold. With 6.4 quarts, my dipstick indicates the oil level is between "full" and "add oil". I found this out quickly after my first oil change on the CRD. The top mark does not read FULL It says MAX Two different words AND according to the FSM it's 6.3 Quarts :wink: