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Rebuilding the nuked engine and looking for expert opinions
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Author:  geordi [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Rebuilding the nuked engine and looking for expert opinions
Well, I've had a good day of examining the engine finally, and trying to find a shop willing to work on it with me. The local Detroit shop, which is listed by VM as being their rep... Won't touch it. They claim to not work on anything this small, and wouldn't even know where to get parts. Hmm, then why does VM think you work on their engines, when all they make IS small?

So I visited a couple other local shops with the engine, getting referred from one to the next, until I found a place that will at least work on the crank and block, provided I finish removing everything that is on the outside of it.

Basically, they will only touch the block, main bearings, pistons, and crank. But they are at least willing to re-sleeve the cylinder and re-ring all four pistons, providing I can get the parts.

So where can I get the parts? I've got a call to (and an email sent from) a parts place in Ohio that contacted VM for me, they are going to ask about prices for the piston, sleeve, rings, and the cost of a complete long block.

The block's oil pickup tube connection was damaged and will need to be welded, but with the crank looking like it got scored in the demolition... Should I even get into this? What is the likely ballpark for cost on this stuff? In addition to the parts already mentioned, I either need a new front cover, or the tensioner bolt hole needs to be re-built to be a lot stronger since the helicoil pulled out. I still can't believe that VM installed a helicoil themselves. That doesn't even count the gaskets, or anything else that will come up since the block had been sitting OUTSIDE for over 3 months. Yea, I'm pretty pissed about that since I found out.

So, is this even worth it at the moment? The bright side is the cylinder head - it looks perfect, and none of the rockers appears damaged.
Author:  Glend [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
You could try overseas VM experts for your parts - like:

http://ccgi.vmspecialists.plus.com/rele ... 766f2c0a20

They could probably airfreight over anything you'd need and they are reasonably close (in a worldwide sense). There are people here in Australia that buy VM parts from the UK.

BTW there is a VM2.8L crankshaft for sale (brand new) for $525 AUD (about $420 USD), check it out here:

http://estore.chryslerjeep.com.au/produ ... ts_id=1095

You'd need to get it shipped but it seems to be a bargain.


Good luck.
Author:  Turbo Tim [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sometimes it better to cut bait.
By the time you get all the parts rounded up, it may cost more than another used engine.
There is one on Ebay for $3600.00.
One online junkyard, www.woodfins.com has one for about 5K.
I didn't even try Craigslist yet, but I believe they have to be out there.

I guess the next question is would you be happy with a used engne and then have lots of extra parts?
Author:  stevesmith7 [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
www.car-parts.com search showed 15 available from $1200 to $5k
Author:  geordi [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
:lol: I kinda already have a used engine and lots of extra parts.... The problem is the engine has a 'flow-through' ventilation system in the first cylinder!

I'm coming to the same realization Tim, its just a question of how much the parts will end up being. The machine shop was less than impressed that the engine had been sitting outside for 3 months, in the Florida "liquid sunshine" so it was completely flooded. The existing cylinders look terrible, but they feel smooth... Its just surface rust dust right now, but I don't like that any more than they do. Where I'm concerned is the crankshaft. Since pulling off the damaged rod and what remained of what I can only assume was a rod bearing (thin sliver of metal that partially encased the crankshaft and would have been held by the connecting rod cap) the crank itself doesn't look smooth. The surface rust seems to be highlighting some scoring that I didn't see before. It doesn't feel life anything... But my fingers aren't a micrometer.

Depending on what I hear from the Ohio place, I might end up just selling off the parts except for the stuff I will need to stuff a 2.8 into my Grand Cherokee. That is still the plan, and my family has finally come to agree with it. Might have something to do with $1200 being poured into fixing the Jeep's rear end and attempting to fix a plenum gasket leak... And the mileage STILL being a dismal 15, and that darn vacuum leak still remains.

I think they are about done with that v8 engine, but much as they might like to "clunker" it... Its paid off. New cars aren't.
Author:  geordi [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
stevesmith7 wrote:
www.car-parts.com search showed 15 available from $1200 to $5k


Thats about what I was figuring for the range, and I hadn't even looked. For $1200, This engine isn't worth anything more than an iron paperweight. The cost for the parts would have to be VERY affordable to come close to that point... I'm figuring my personal tipping point at about $1500, including labor. Otherwise, its the uncertainty of a boneyard motor. From what the machine shop said, they would be able to re-sleeve the motor for probably about 2 hours, including honing the crank and re-ringing the other pistons. So its mostly about the parts.

I don't know what a piston or sleeve goes for, but I figure the front cover at about $200, $300-ish for the crank... Then later I know I will need a flywheel. Blarg. The parts will have to be given away to beat a boneyard pull, hmm?
Author:  Magnum [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
from http://www.moparpartsamerica.com

piston $240.35 ea

rings $102.96 per piston

sleeve $47.12 ea

bearings $13.31 ea for standard
for front bearing $20.61

new crankshaft $487.60

gasket $56.64
Author:  warp2diesel [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuilding the nuked engine and looking for expert opini
geordi wrote:
Well, I've had a good day of examining the engine finally, and trying to find a shop willing to work on it with me. The local Detroit shop, which is listed by VM as being their rep... Won't touch it. They claim to not work on anything this small, and wouldn't even know where to get parts. Hmm, then why does VM think you work on their engines, when all they make IS small?

So I visited a couple other local shops with the engine, getting referred from one to the next, until I found a place that will at least work on the crank and block, provided I finish removing everything that is on the outside of it.

Basically, they will only touch the block, main bearings, pistons, and crank. But they are at least willing to re-sleeve the cylinder and re-ring all four pistons, providing I can get the parts.

So where can I get the parts? I've got a call to (and an email sent from) a parts place in Ohio that contacted VM for me, they are going to ask about prices for the piston, sleeve, rings, and the cost of a complete long block.

The block's oil pickup tube connection was damaged and will need to be welded, but with the crank looking like it got scored in the demolition... Should I even get into this? What is the likely ballpark for cost on this stuff? In addition to the parts already mentioned, I either need a new front cover, or the tensioner bolt hole needs to be re-built to be a lot stronger since the helicoil pulled out. I still can't believe that VM installed a helicoil themselves. That doesn't even count the gaskets, or anything else that will come up since the block had been sitting OUTSIDE for over 3 months. Yea, I'm pretty pissed about that since I found out.

So, is this even worth it at the moment? The bright side is the cylinder head - it looks perfect, and none of the rockers appears damaged.


Are the cylinder walls on the other three rusty or discolored from over heating? If not I would be tempted to leave them be and replace the bad sleeve, piston, rod and service the crank if needed. Another detail would be to make sure the new piston is the same height from the wrist pin as the others so the compression is balanced.
VM buys their parts from other suppliers and sourcing from those suppliers through their distributors is not impossible.

Google produced this supplier: http://ccgi.vmspecialists.plus.com/rele ... 78b12a6893
Author:  nursecosmo [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Have you tried VM America? http://www.vmmotori.it/en/vmna.jsp
Author:  Turbo Tim [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just to freshen up the “Other” type of engine cost about 2K from the local machine shops here in Phoenix. That is mostly labor costs.
Since every situation is different, weigh the costs of both (rebuild or buy used engine) and go from there.
Author:  e_poirier2004 [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
After doing a bit of research and having also some problems with my local Detroit Diesel shop, I discovered this link:http://www.vmmotori.it/en/vmna.jsp where VM has a representative to support us in North America. Her name is Diana Dupuie and her email is ddupuie@vn-na.com, her phone number is (248) 648-2460 and the address is 1067, Centre Drive Auburn Hills Detroit, Michigan 48326. Good luck!
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Based on having done this type of work before with this engine, I would ball park all of the necessary tools, indication equipment for measuring, and parts to come in between 3-4 thousand dollars.

The KJ R2816/R428 has liners, so there isn't any sleeving or boring to be done, they'd have to be replaced. Then there is the time of shimming them all to the correct height and having to select a headgasket based on it.

Honestly, I think you're better off finding another engine, not only in terms of dollars cost but time spent as well. You're not going to find many, if any, machine shops in the US that are familiar with this engine and that I'd personally trust to fix it.

What shop in Detroit did you ask about the rework? I could buy all the parts from VM myself and rebuild the engine, that's the easy part.
Author:  geordi [ Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:14 am ]
Post subject: 
I hadn't seen that central contact person for VM, but the place that I did speak with today in Ohio is Graham Power Products. I don't doubt the pricing anybody is mentioning here, and while I don't mind the idea of trying to just rebuild the one cylinder... It is the unknowns that scare me. I do have the complete set of Chrysler's tools, but I think they might be better served on a more complete motor. I don't believe any of those tools are designed to insert or extract a liner. The precise measurement of the liner placement and then the selection of the gasket... Is not something I've done before. My main fear is the result if I screw that up somehow - The timing or depth isn't right, and the rockers all get trashed. Thats $1000 gone right then.

I'm still running the numbers, but its looking more like if I want to do the motor swap, I'm going to be starting with another motor. I agree about the lack of experienced techs for these. That is a real problem in the USA... The only engines that seem to have competent techs are class 8. The rest of us have been trained for the last 20 years or so to believe that a car is simply a throwaway commodity, like a torn pair of socks. That consumerist culture of 'just buy another instead of fix what you have when it can be' is terribly wasteful.

At least if I get a boneyard motor, it will be recycling in one way.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Post your long block for sale
Doing the operations to swap out the bad wet sleeve, piston, rod and checking the top of the sleeve projection is the proper procedure for all most all wet sleeved engines. My 1946 Farmall BN requires the same procedure be done when changing sleeves.
My garage is full as well as the Barn where I keep my old tractors, my '63 BMW 1500 and lots of old spare parts.
Some one, some where will have the time and energy to take your long block with one trashed cylinder and transform it into a good engine.
One case would be an engine that chucked a rod through the side of the block, the two could become one and another VM 2.8L engine would be back in use and the cost would be a complete gasket set along with liner shims. Replace bearing inserts and rings, there would be a rebuilt engine.

Besides geordi, you know how to post the pics.
Author:  95BadBoy [ Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
geordi

Don't know if you looked at the motors on car part yet, but the $1200 one was a 9800 mile unit out of a right hand drive rig IIRC. The bad news is that the vehicle had been on fire.

If that is indeed a good motor - thats pretty cheep.
Author:  stevesmith7 [ Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Last time I was shopping for a motor I noticed there are a bunch of fire damaged ones out there. I've been told if they are running and the FD uses dry chemical type extinguisher on the fire they can inhale some nasty stuff. Never gone that route.
Author:  moto-scoot [ Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
geordi wrote:
. I do have the complete set of Chrysler's tools, but I think they might be better served on a more complete motor. I don't believe any of those tools are designed to insert or extract a liner. The precise measurement of the liner placement and then the selection of the gasket... Is not something I've done before. My main fear is the result if I screw that up somehow - The timing or depth isn't right, and the rockers all get trashed. .


vm 1001 is the puller
vm 1010 is used with vm1013 dial indicator to set depth
vm 1076 are the installers

these all were included in jeeps special tool set for the CRD
Author:  geordi [ Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Well, then I guess I do have the stuff to do this. Now the only question is... Was there any damage to the crankshaft where the rod connects to it, and can I fix the oil pickup tube's connection. I think I can weld the pickup tube myself, it will just require the opening of the final front cover to truly inspect the damage. I guess I should contact that lady from VM and get a price list for the parts directly.

Doing it myself will be the cheapest no matter what, and if I can rotate the block by hand to check the motion... I might just be OK.

Out of curiosity, would it be bad to pour a bunch of WD-40 into the tops of the cylinders before rotating everything by hand? I want to make sure this thing has PLENTY of lubricant, and I don't think oil would be thin enough to get into the spaces initially.

I am already figuring on sacrificing at least 2 oil changes in rapid succession *IF* I can get it back to operating condition.
Author:  warp2diesel [ Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:27 am ]
Post subject:  DIY and Tool
geordi wrote:
Well, then I guess I do have the stuff to do this. Now the only question is... Was there any damage to the crankshaft where the rod connects to it, and can I fix the oil pickup tube's connection. I think I can weld the pickup tube myself, it will just require the opening of the final front cover to truly inspect the damage. I guess I should contact that lady from VM and get a price list for the parts directly.

Doing it myself will be the cheapest no matter what, and if I can rotate the block by hand to check the motion... I might just be OK.

Out of curiosity, would it be bad to pour a bunch of WD-40 into the tops of the cylinders before rotating everything by hand? I want to make sure this thing has PLENTY of lubricant, and I don't think oil would be thin enough to get into the spaces initially.

I am already figuring on sacrificing at least 2 oil changes in rapid succession *IF* I can get it back to operating condition.


I could explain in great detail how to make or improvise the tools your self, but since Onthehunt will Loan/Rent what you need a, PM to him may be the best move.
I have read he likes Beer a lot.
The FSM has great detail on how to do the job.
For those who do not have it I saw a link to it in the CRD Tech section.
Sir Sam has lead members to the link a quite a few times.

WD-40 is not the most agressive penitrating oil for freeing up rusted parts, but cleaning up the cylinders would be a good app.
To get the debris out of between the cylinders and piston area between the top and rings, position the piston one quarter to half way down. spray the WD-40 on the cylinder wall and wipe off the excess. Then turn the crank so the piston is at the bottom and wipe off the cylinder wall. Repeat until you do not see or feel any debris. Use good quality paper towels or painters rags, not shop towels or old clothes with wrinkle free sizing, they won't absorb the debris and you will waste a lot of time. When the cylinder wall looks and feels clean, apply engine oil to the cylinder wall.

For the crank journal, inspect the bearing halves on the rod very well, if they look great, crank damage is less likely. When you inspect the crank journal. Look and feel every square millimeter of the journal. Look and feel the throw where it goes to the crank journal. Ignore any imperfections that are the same color as the crank but look at any fresh white wounds for damage.
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