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 Post subject: Post your CRD oil analysis
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:49 pm 
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I just got my first oil change analyzed at Blackstone. I only left it in for 3200 miles and I'm glad I didn't wait any longer. Iron and Silicon were high due to break in. If you're curious about oil analysis look up Blackstone labs or Oil Analyzers Inc., etc.

It doesn't look like the factory fill is Mobil 1, as required in the manual. The chemical makeup is different. I don't know what it is.

I changed to Rotella synthetic 5W-40 for the next interval. I think I'll go about 5000 on the next oil and then start stretching it out to the recommended 12,000. I'm curious about what other people's results are, so if you get an analysis, post up. Just cut and paste the table with your values so we can have some consistent looking results.

Miles on oil: 3200
Miles on engine: 3200
Oil Filter: Mopar
Air Filter: Mopar
Oil added: 1/2 quart

Aluminum: 13
Chromium: 4
Iron: 35
Copper: 7
Lead: 5
Tin: 4
Molybdenum: 1
Nickel: 1
Manganese: 6
Potassium: 5
Boron: 5
Silicon: 40
Calcium: 1793
Magnesium: 39
Phosphorus: 1159
Zinc: 1380
Barium: 1
(All other values: 0)

SUS Visc @ 210: 66.9
Flashpoint: 400
Fuel %: <0.5
Insolubles %: 0.5


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:14 pm 
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What's different that leads you to believe it's not Mobil 1? Thanks.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:07 pm 
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Looks pretty good to me for a new engine, nothing really high except Si (silica =dirt) I would look into maybe the airfilter is leaking as if the box may not be sealed proper or are you using something besides a Dodge airfilter? Most after market filters do not filter as well as OEM filters. Mind you it's not real high, but the index norm is 15 according to their site. I will say I thought the norm was more in the 50 to 75 range, I will check it with a engineer (PhD type) friend if you want me to.

Check out universial averages here.

Did you request a TBN (Total Base Number) report, that is what will tell you if the oil is still good to go for holding the soot in suspension. Also you don't show the VI # (Viscosity Index) and that is what tells you how the oil is hold up viscosity wise and is also very important. These two things determine when to change oil and not the part of the report you posted. If I remember correctly at Blackstone you have to request these two test and pay extra, but if the sample comes back with good report then you might not request it again for several test periods or if you change brands.

What is a TBN

There is nothing in the posted report that has anything to do with determing the chemical makeup of the oil so why the statement that it doesn't look like the proper Mobil 1 factory fill?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:26 pm 
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Here is a place called AVLUBE with a better rep and cheaper then Blackstone. Blackstone charges $40 or $50 for testing that includes TBN and Avlube $18 according to website.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:49 pm 
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I didn't get a TBN because I only ran it 3200 mi. No modern oil would lose its protection in that little time so I knew the TBN would be fine. When I do my first 10,000 mi interval I'll get the TBN. Blackstone is $20, plust $10 for TBN.

The silicon is high because of the freshly sand cast engine block, etc. It says I was using a Mopar filter.

Mobil 1 always has about 50 to 100 ppm of moly in it, and this had essentially none. That's why I don't believe it's Mobil 1.
Also, the calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, and zinc are not in the right ratios typical to M1.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:17 pm 
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CATCRD wrote:
I didn't get a TBN because I only ran it 3200 mi. No modern oil would lose its protection in that little time so I knew the TBN would be fine. When I do my first 10,000 mi interval I'll get the TBN. Blackstone is $20, plust $10 for TBN.

The silicon is high because of the freshly sand cast engine block, etc. It says I was using a Mopar filter.

Mobil 1 always has about 50 to 100 ppm of moly in it, and this had essentially none. That's why I don't believe it's Mobil 1.
Also, the calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, and zinc are not in the right ratios typical to M1.

Aah the filters I forgot about that, senior moment I guess.

I was told by engineer at Chrysler that has not been true for over two decades in the US, but maybe in Italy it still happens. Engines do have above norm metals at break in and high Si often from dust in intake parts before assembly.

You know the chemical make up of Mobil 1 0w-40? That's unusal. What do you think happened, dealer added some non Mobil 1 oil durring it's stay at the dealership?

Some modern oils can loose the TBN in 3000 miles easy, see it several times in last 3 or 4 years. All diesels by the way.

Anyway nothing harmed unless the oil is a special break in oil that's used in some European cars such as VW and MB. I could still be a special order Mobil 1 0w-40 used only for break in purposes for a set period such as 6250 to 12500 miles. VW does this and has a first oil change on their diesel at 5,000 miles, second one is another 5,000 miles then every 10,000 miles there after if proper synthetic oil is used.

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 Post subject: Re: Post your CRD oil analysis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:07 pm 
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Got my second change analyzed a couple months ago, but haven't posted it until now. I put a slash next to the values of the last change and then the new value. Trends show a nice decrease in wear metals, which should come down even further.
This oil was in during a Christmas trip from colorado to NY and back, in which I ran the libby for 23 hrs straight on the way back, literally without turning the engine off. Never had a problem during the trip.
Didn't get a TBN this time either. I'll probably go 7,000 on the next interval and get the TBN. If that looks ok I'll take it out to 10,000. I've got 10,200mi on the vehicle now.

Miles on oil: 3200/4200
Miles on engine: 3200/7400
Oil Filter: Mopar
Air Filter: Mopar
Oil added: 1/2 quart

Aluminum: 13/7
Chromium: 4/2
Iron: 35/24
Copper: 7/2
Lead: 5/3
Tin: 4/2
Molybdenum: 1/3
Nickel: 1/0
Manganese: 6/1
Potassium: 5/2
Boron: 5/2
Silicon: 40/9
Calcium: 1793/2837
Magnesium: 39/19
Phosphorus: 1159/1079
Zinc: 1380/1161
Barium: 1/0
(All other values: 0)

SUS Visc @ 210: 71.7
Flashpoint: 440
Fuel %: <0.5
Insolubles %: 0.5


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:17 pm 
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hey Navy ... thanks for the link .. I ordered 2 with TBN .. one for the GF's 1.8t to see if I can extend her 5k mile interval on mobil 1 and one to see how the rotella is going to look @ 20 k from a 12.5 k fill


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:32 pm 
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You are most welcome sir.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:42 am 
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This is way I always recommend 2 to 3 short drains on a new motor. No matter how clean things are during assembly, you will get dirt in it. But things are looking good and metals are coming down nicely.

Greg


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:44 pm 
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What would make the Molybdenum and Calcium go up?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:28 pm 
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Guyute1210 wrote:
What would make the Molybdenum and Calcium go up?

Different oil. I used Rotella 5W-40 synthetic instead of Mobil 1.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:58 pm 
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oldnavy wrote:
CATCRD wrote:

Mobil 1 always has about 50 to 100 ppm of moly in it, and this had essentially none. That's why I don't believe it's Mobil 1.
Also, the calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, and zinc are not in the right ratios typical to M1.


You know the chemical make up of Mobil 1 0w-40? That's unusal. What do you think happened, dealer added some non Mobil 1 oil durring it's stay at the dealership?


oldnavy: Someone that is familiar with getting and reading UOA's and is mentioning moly levels and the presence of calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, and zinc in the makeup of an oil is professing (accurately) to be able to know if an oil is what is is supposed to be. The presence of specific chemicals and/or additives in an oil sample is a very accurate way of determining if an unknown oil is NOT what is is said to be based on comparing the presence of those chemicals or additives in a virgin sample of the oil in question....and those amounts are readilly available to us "non-chemical engineeers".

Based on CATCRD's information and others I'm aware of, I do NOT believe that the factory fill on the CRD's was the Owner's Manual spec'd Mobil 1 0W-40. It was something else....not necessarilly something bad though. Was a dealer somehow responsible for "tainting" a Mobil 1 factory fill by adding some other oil?? NO!! Either the engines were filled with some other lubricant by either VM Motori in Italy or by Daimler Chrysler in the US. Not that I am giving the dealers credit for anything....I think that almost ALL are clueless as to the proper oil for the CRD unless it is pointed out to them.

I do agree that the Mobil 1 0W-40 was specifically chosen for its ability to raise MPG and for no other reason. There is NO WAY that this is the optimal oil for this motor.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:42 pm 
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miraCRD wrote:
oldnavy wrote:
CATCRD wrote:

Mobil 1 always has about 50 to 100 ppm of moly in it, and this had essentially none. That's why I don't believe it's Mobil 1.
Also, the calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, and zinc are not in the right ratios typical to M1.


You know the chemical make up of Mobil 1 0w-40? That's unusal. What do you think happened, dealer added some non Mobil 1 oil durring it's stay at the dealership?


oldnavy: Someone that is familiar with getting and reading UOA's and is mentioning moly levels and the presence of calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, and zinc in the makeup of an oil is professing (accurately) to be able to know if an oil is what is is supposed to be. The presence of specific chemicals and/or additives in an oil sample is a very accurate way of determining if an unknown oil is NOT what is is said to be based on comparing the presence of those chemicals or additives in a virgin sample of the oil in question....and those amounts are readilly available to us "non-chemical engineeers".

Based on CATCRD's information and others I'm aware of, I do NOT believe that the factory fill on the CRD's was the Owner's Manual spec'd Mobil 1 0W-40. It was something else....not necessarilly something bad though. Was a dealer somehow responsible for "tainting" a Mobil 1 factory fill by adding some other oil?? NO!! Either the engines were filled with some other lubricant by either VM Motori in Italy or by Daimler Chrysler in the US. Not that I am giving the dealers credit for anything....I think that almost ALL are clueless as to the proper oil for the CRD unless it is pointed out to them.

I do agree that the Mobil 1 0W-40 was specifically chosen for its ability to raise MPG and for no other reason. There is NO WAY that this is the optimal oil for this motor.
Not use to many people doing that kind of reading or even using oil samples. :roll:

I would think they would send the engines without the oil, but I guess I could be wrong. Could have even been a batch of bad oil or wrong oil used and the guy doing the oil install just didn't bother having other engines pulled off the line, or something of the like happened.

I generally would drive a US made car about 500 to 1000 miles then dump the oil for my Mobil 1, however my experience with VW & MB (Euro mfg's) is that they use a very specific oil for break in with a desired oil change point with a specific spec oil. Kind of thought we would have the same with the VM, looks like I was mistaken.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:18 pm 
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oldnavy wrote:

I would think they would send the engines without the oil, but I guess I could be wrong


No, I agree with you there...I've always heard of motors being shipped dry (no fluids). The freight carriers I think would rather not have to deal with spilled (hazardous) fluids if something happens. The only reason I think they may have been factory filled is because of the overseas trip. The inside of the motors would obviosly be more protected from any corrosion if they had some oil in them already. I wish there was a way to find out....

oldnavy wrote:
I generally would drive a US made car about 500 to 1000 miles then dump the oil for my Mobil 1, however my experience with VW & MB (Euro mfg's) is that they use a very specific oil for break in with a desired oil change point with a specific spec oil. Kind of thought we would have the same with the VM, looks like I was mistaken.


That is a thought....maybe VM or DC filled them with something that was different than the Mobil 1, but that they considered to be a better break-in oil for the motor.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:27 pm 
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miraCRD wrote:
That is a thought....maybe VM or DC filled them with something that was different than the Mobil 1, but that they considered to be a better break-in oil for the motor.
I changed out the CRD at 4,000 mile mark as I didn't think the oil was good enough for the soot load that we have due to our 500 ppm fuel, however after the switch out to ULSD I think it might be a fine to use as they do in Europe where the have ULSD already.

Edited: Forgot to mention I went to Mobil 1 T & SUV 5W-40 at that first change out.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:59 pm 
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Miles on oil: 7738
Miles on engine: 20350
Oil Filter: Purolator
Air Filter: Purolator
Oil added: none ( oil was Shell Rotella T Diesel oil. )

Aluminum: 23
Chromium: 8
Iron: 83
Copper: 7
Lead: 3
Tin: 0
Molybdenum: 10
Nickel: 2
Manganese: (not on report)
Potassium: 10
Boron: 9
Silicon: 29
Calcium: 3588
Magnesium: 16
Phosphorus: 1484
Zinc: 1578
Barium: )not on report)
Silver 0
Sodium 11

SUS Visc @ 100 C ... 14.4
BN 4.92

Soot 0.7
Oxidation 18.00
Nitration 10.00

Comments were: Soot levels Slightly above normal ... Check for source of soot(Dirty air filter, Lugging, Bad injectors, bad fuel, "hunting" etc)
dirt indicated by high aluminum and silicon levels (Alunima and silica) viscosity is low. Check for of Dirt entry. Change Oil. Resample at normal interval.




my notes ... I guess when my son gets back I'll check the air filter .. possibly reseat and change ... I did change the oil when sampled .. will see what another 7500 change brings ... I'm sure the bad fuel plays into the soot factor ... I can tell when one batch of fuel has loads of soot making potential ...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:00 am 
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I had my oil analyzed by Staveley Services Fluids Analysis. This was from the oil that came from the factory in the VM Motori. It would be safe to say that everybody can use this perfect example and not procrastinate on changing the factory oil. Since the change I have put in AMSOIL 5W-40 European blend.



Miles on oil: 6250
Miles on engine: 15000
Oil Filter: MOPAR
Air Filter: MOPAR
Oil added: 1 QT

Aluminum: 32*
Chromium: 27*
Iron: 248*
Copper: 15
Lead: 26
Tin: 1
Molybdenum: 95
Nickel: 4
Manganese: 21
Potassium: 0
Boron: 134
Silicon: 36*
Calcium: 2942
Magnesium: 21
Phosphorus: 1077
Zinc: 1102
Barium: 0
Silver 0
Sodium 18

PHYSICAL PROPERTIES
Fuel(% vol): <.5
Vis @ 40 C: N/A
Vis @ 100 C: 13.14
Water(% vol):<.1
Soot/Solids(%WT): 0.7
Coolant: NO


*= ABNORMAL

ANALYSIS RECOMMENDATIONS
SILICON LEVEL IS HIGH FROM NORMAL ENGINE BREAK-IN. WEAR METAL(S) APPEAR TO BE HIGH, POSSIBLY FROM NORMAL BREAK-IN. RECOMMEND RESAMPLE TO CHECK WEAR TREND.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:57 am 
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That has to be one of the worst UOA's I've seen on any new engine posted recently. I would be interested in your next UOA with the Amsoil.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:32 am 
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Ranger1 wrote:
That has to be one of the worst UOA's I've seen on any new engine posted recently. I would be interested in your next UOA with the Amsoil.



explain?

backround in oil analysis ?


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