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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:41 pm 
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Agreed. The clutch material was not included at all. Although looking at it I'm not impressed. But my only experience before this tear down was with manual trannies.

Does anyone know how to calculate the torque pulse shape based upon the number of cylinders in an engine and it's rated torque output? I assume it depends upon the flywheel and other things that would act as a smoothing function on the power stroke of the piston. There's probably a lot more to it as well that I don't understand at this point. I'd be really interested to see a graph of force versus engine rotation to understand what the peak torque pulses look like.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:22 pm 
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http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... ngines.htm

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:37 pm 
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http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4843870.pdf

Got that from a quick web search. It has some plots of torque pulse vs crank angle. Really large torque spikes occur in that sawtooth looking graph. As has been mentioned by others a 4 cylinder engine would have considerably higher peak to average variation for the same engine torque rating as compared to a 6 or 8 cylinder engine.

It would seem from the info presented by various individuals on here that demonstrate friction additives (like Dr. Tranny) improving the shudder phenomena is likely helping the wimpy clutch interface to increase the holding force of that interface, but if a torque pulse exceeds the clutches static friction capability then the wimpy springs will be insufficient to keep a metal to metal interference from occurring. Hence the shuddering.

Just my $0.02.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:38 pm 
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CATCRD wrote:
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/torsional_excitation_from_piston_engines.htm


Excellent. Much better than the example I just posted. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:06 am 
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TDIwyse wrote:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4843870.pdf

Got that from a quick web search. It has some plots of torque pulse vs crank angle. Really large torque spikes occur in that sawtooth looking graph. As has been mentioned by others a 4 cylinder engine would have considerably higher peak to average variation for the same engine torque rating as compared to a 6 or 8 cylinder engine.

It would seem from the info presented by various individuals on here that demonstrate friction additives (like Dr. Tranny) improving the shudder phenomena is likely helping the wimpy clutch interface to increase the holding force of that interface, but if a torque pulse exceeds the clutches static friction capability then the wimpy springs will be insufficient to keep a metal to metal interference from occurring. Hence the shuddering.

Just my $0.02.


I think the Dr. Tranny stuff actually works by reducing the static coefficient of friction of the clutch, bringing it closer to the dynamic coefficient of friction. This makes it less "grabby" and reduces shudder.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:53 am 
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CATCRD wrote:
I think the Dr. Tranny stuff actually works by reducing the static coefficient of friction of the clutch, bringing it closer to the dynamic coefficient of friction. This makes it less "grabby" and reduces shudder.


Interesting. I'll have to study clutch/friction theory a little more.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:16 am 
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Even electric motors produce a form of torsional vibration, in a motor it's called torque ripple. I've described IC engines as a continual series of, "here's some fuel - blow it up..." and permanent magnet motors (used in hybrid vehicles due to their relative high power/weight ratio) as a continual series of, "hey magnet, come over here..."

Torque is an illusion. An illusion of a constant force that's usually created by a series of impulses. Figure out how to properly harness those impulses and waste as little amount of energy as possible in damping and you've won.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:58 pm 
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danoid wrote:
Even electric motors produce a form of torsional vibration, in a motor it's called torque ripple.
Torque is an illusion. An illusion of a constant force that's usually created by a series of impulses.



On a lathe group I belong to there's a current thread about 3 phase motors producing a better finish on the machined part then the same lathe with a single phase motor. This group is mainly a hobby group that are buying retired tools from industry that have 3 phase motors. "The series of impulses" are more with a 3 phase motor and therefore give a better finish. Same situation :POPCORN:

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:51 pm 
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Finished drilling out some more rivets to separate the clutch plate. It's obvious there was quite a bit of slipping going on as much of the surface showed considerable wear.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10201173@N06/4324106486/

Doing some looking at papers on wet clutches seems to indicate two possibilities which have already been mentioned.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/15j6w13134r0700k/

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3164657

I couldn't visually see any indication of metal to metal contact, but I only let it shudder a few times before replacing the TC. Sooooo . . . I guess I didn't find the smoking gun I was looking for. Oh well, I'm just glad the new mopar TC is working for those of us who are using it.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Got some lab data back on the stator material.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10201173@N06/4387763592/

This is a TGA plot. It shows the weight % of the sample, as well as the derivative, of material decomposition across temp. There is essentially no change up to 100 C (212 F). This is likely due to the material alreading being exposed to temps up to this point and the volatile components where already out-gassed. Rapid decomposition didn't start occuring until above 288 C (550 F).

There's also a DSC plot over multiple runs up to 250 C (482 F) that I can upload if there's interest.

All in all it seems like the material composition of the stator should be suitable for use in an automotive application as I don't think there's many situations where it would exceed 500 F.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:31 pm 
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TDIwyse wrote:
All in all it seems like the material composition of the stator should be suitable for use in an automotive application as I don't think there's many situations where it would exceed 500 F.

At the risk of sounding sarcastic, "Gee I would hope so." Seriously though, it is relatively easy to reach those temperatures or higher. All it takes is a dedicated will to destroy your transmission. No you can't get much past 260°F in heavy usage without the transmission trying to protect itself. And no I will not tell you how to do it, but I've seen torque converters with blue shells. Blueing of steel usually only happens on polished chrome exhaust pipes. But IMO, if you don't break a few, you haven't tested them right.

I spelled it out to the torque converter group in 2004. "There's far more torque per cylinder than the Hemi. It's gonna need a stronger damper." Their solution years later was to instead, lower the engine torque. I directly asked that senior manager for a refund of that percentage of my vehicle cost. My answer was a not so nice stare. (Yes I'm career limited - guess why.)

Bottoming out the damper changes the already high transient loading of a 4 cylinder diesel (torsional vibration) into an impact event. For instance, a steady state (read average over time) torque of 300 lbf-ft can have transient torque (noise on the signal) from 250 to 350 lbf-ft. That's with a spring (the damper) holding back the worst of the highs and returning it's energy in the lows. Bottoming out the spring and slapping metal against metal could easily double the magnitude of that noise resulting in asking the clutch to hold anywhere from 200 to 400 lbf-ft. (not the real numbers just an example) Along comes another engineer who hasn't been told the whole story and his manager asks him to design a clutch that holds 300 lbf-ft. He bakes in a little cushion and makes it good to 350. It works. For a while. Then the springs in the damper take a set (permanently deform) and the damper starts to bottom out. Now that 300 lbf-ft clutch that can actually hold 350 has to hold 400 and fails. Is it the clutch engineer's fault?

I have no idea if that's what happened or not. It's my opinion based on my observations. Others certainly saw that part of history differently.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:50 pm 
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danoid wrote:

I directly asked that senior manager for a refund of that percentage of my vehicle cost. My answer was a not so nice stare. (Yes I'm career limited - guess why.)



I'm also career limited for doing similar things to my engineering management. I think we'd get along swell. :D

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:13 pm 
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CATCRD wrote:
Also, do the springs go solid with less than 1.13" compression? If so, that would be your hard stop.


I somehow managed to overlook this until re-reading the thread after posting the lab results of the stator material.

You get a gold star. I just measured the compression point of the springs before they bottom out and become solid. It's just a hair over 1".

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:45 pm 
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In all the talk about changing the TC, nobody ever mentions how long it takes them to disconnect the shifter linkage and deal with all that trimwork on the inside of the Jeep. Isn't that a time consuming part of the job.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:16 pm 
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You don't disconnect anything inside. You just take the link off the lever that pokes out the side of the transmission.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:55 am 
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Really?? That is good news at least.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:03 pm 
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Really! :D

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:50 am 
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TDIwyse wrote:
I purchased a 68037142AA torque converter online from moparonlineparts last wednesday with 2nd day air delivery. It showed up today, 7 days later. The box the torque converter came in has the 68037142AA number on it, but the actual torque converter does not. The part has the following stamped on it: 914AA0168A. It has a white sticker on it with these numbers: PO4736914AA and TTP0168B0399. It also has a lot of surface rust on it.

Does anyone who has purchased the new "european" torque converter have any info on what their part had for labels/numbers?

Is this indeed the correct part or do I have something that is not what I ordered?

Do I need to be worried that there is surface rust on the part?

Thanks for your inputs.



Sounds good, Ive browsed around here and dont see a pic of the EURO TC, has anyone got one? please.

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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:16 pm 
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crdjon wrote:
Sounds good, Ive browsed around here and dont see a pic of the EURO TC, has anyone got one? please.


Found a pic of the TC as it was shipped to me. The surface rust is obvious. It looked basically the same as the one that came out except for the surface rust.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10201173@N06/4521175749/

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2011 BMW 335d
2004 Dodge Ram Cummins, lots-o-mods
1990 YJ Repowered with 06 Cummins B3.3T
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 Post subject: Re: European Torque Converter Question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:23 pm 
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TDIwyse wrote:
crdjon wrote:
Sounds good, Ive browsed around here and dont see a pic of the EURO TC, has anyone got one? please.


Found a pic of the TC as it was shipped to me. The surface rust is obvious. It looked basically the same as the one that came out except for the surface rust.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10201173@N06/4521175749/



Great, thanks for the pic, dont worry about the rust, my hemi tc arrived 2 months after the build date and it was the same. I posted links arround somewhere with photos. They're just made out of stuff that rusts easily, if its not too pitted, a little bit of steel wool and a little atf and elbow grease and they come up ok.

Sadly, the picture indicates that it has a straight impellor configuration, ie NO HOOKUP......

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BP ULTIMATE
Extra Transmission cooler
2.5 inch full flow muffler.
Fuel Heater Disconnected.
In tank lift pump :)
Provent :)
Boost, EGT and Trans temp.
Engine Bay Vents soon.
Transgo Valve body (no resistor) :)
Hemi TC P04736587AC replaced (original TC P04736582AD in '07 KJ CRD) - Nice -:) :) :)

If im not here Im there....


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