European Torque Converter Question

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

crdjon wrote:

Sadly, the picture indicates that it has a straight impellor configuration, ie NO HOOKUP......

It hooks up well enough to spin the wheels in 4wd on dry pavement with the GDE turbo kit . . .

crdjon · **Posted:** Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:47 pm

TDIwyse wrote:

crdjon wrote:

Sadly, the picture indicates that it has a straight impellor configuration, ie NO HOOKUP......

It hooks up well enough to spin the wheels in 4wd on dry pavement with the GDE turbo kit . . .

Thats great, Not really the point though, the hemi equipped KJ I drive will quite happily do the same without the turbo kit or the the GDE tune.

EURO has got no hookup, IMHO its got lockup and controlled slip, thats the point, you are totally reliant on pump pressures and electronic modulation, my personal preference and experience with this vehicle is I dont like that situation.

Suncoast has the curvature in the fins, I got the hemi same fins, and I HAVE HAMMERED this thing. Pull between the gears is nice, forward motion, irrespective of TCM control that we dont yet have proper control over, YET........

I forgot to ask, what is the stall speed of the EURO TC, if its like the original I bet its up around 2300 rpm, the nice feature of the SUNCOAST and HEMI is you stall the TC at quite a bit lower rpms, anyone brave enough to do the stall speed test on the EURO yet......

Each to his own.... isnt this fun....

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

crdjon wrote:

NO HOOKUP

Thats great, Not really the point though

It's possible you missed my point. Saying the Euro TC has "NO HOOKUP" is factually incorrect.

I've heard feedback from several people with the Suncoast TC that have shudder with the IMII or GDE Hot tune. Haven't heard a single case of shudder with the Euro TC. Not saying it won't be reported, just haven't seen any reports myself.

I recall reading a report from one individual on here that switched from the stock TC to Suncoast with the lower stall speed and had hoped to gain some mpg's with a more efficient transfer of power but did not see an improvement. Perhaps some others have, but the data I've seen doesn't support that.

When break launching my CRD with the Euro TC and the GDE turbo kit for some performance tests I pushed the rpm's to over 2k a couple times . . . no problems.

Yes, the aluminum stator in the Suncoast will sustain higher temps than the composite stator in the Euro TC. But the thermal properties of the Euro TC from my measured data indicates it has some significant design margin.

If Suncoast increases the design margin on their shudder issue, and Mopar keeps raising the cost of the Euro TC, then my conclusion for the best TC would shift to Suncoast . . .

crdjon · **Posted:** Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:10 am

Sorry, I dont have a lot more to help you all out with this, I was disappointed to see the EURO without cupping, very disappointed, It was on my list of yet another further enhancement, I had a TC without hookup (cupping), I now have one with hookup and I can say I will NEVER go back to one without it. You just need to get into a vehicle with it and you very quickly realise the benefit.

I selected the updated 2009 HEMI TC, it works, no shudder and pulls very nicely and all transmission temps dropped significantly (thats important for a number of reasons), and the fuel consumption improved, and engine rpms down accross the board. Ive been down this road and I know what is working. And the price was right.

Its simple, trans cooler, transgo and HEMI type TC is what I can speak for that works for me. Like the last jeep tech that drove my kj said "Christ, this thing drives like the Merc (grand cherokee) was is reference point. One particular further comment from him that I thought was worth noting is that he said that he never thought he would see a kj CRD without engine flaring.

Good luck with your solution search, I know and understand how annoying and frustrating it can be to find it.

I would like to one day try something like GDE simply to sort out injector timing and what appears to be low down over fuelling/under boost but shipping my ECU overseas is not an option for my daily drive requirements at this stage.

I have the lid off a spare TCM at the moment, a few bits of hardware arriving this week too, now what do we have in here amongst all this goop thats useful.......

SPN-87 · **Joined:** Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:09 pm **Posts:** 53

Most of KJ CRD owners have a lot of problems with OEM TC.
My question is - what is the difference between KJ CRD and Dodge Nitro CRD engines ? What is the difference between 545RFE and Dodge Nitro transmission ? Are Dodge Nitro owners have the same problems with TC ? - if not? can we use Dodge TC on our CRD ?
Sorry if my questions sounds rookie

2006 KJ CRD Sport

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:02 am

The KA/KK uses the W5A580 (also called the NAG-1). This is a Mercedes design transmission made by Chrysler. The A580 uses a completely different T/C in terms of design and size because the A580 does not actually fully lock-up the torque converter but instead operates in various levels of slip (it is a modulated torque converter instead of just fully locked or unlocked). You can't take a converter from a KJ/JK and exchange it with one from a KA/KK.

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

MrMopar, was hoping you could shed some more light on something you posted awhile back in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=45256&hilit=suncoast+fuel&start=20

"A lower K-factor was tested some time ago in various applications to see the effects. We found (scientifically) that the launch performance from a dead stop to 60mph was worse (mainly due to the first 60 feet since the turbo will only spool so fast and, in order to limit the smoke, with no boost the fuel is limited) and also the fuel economy was slightly worse because in city driving off and on the pedal, you had to inject more fuel when pushing on the pedal to move the vehicle at the same rate of acceleration. "

Do you recall about what % of improvement in 0-60 and mpg's you measured with the different K-factor TC's? Thanks.

DynoPax · **Posted:** Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:21 pm

crdjon wrote:

Sorry, I dont have a lot more to help you all out with this, I was disappointed to see the EURO without cupping, very disappointed, It was on my list of yet another further enhancement, I had a TC without hookup (cupping), I now have one with hookup and I can say I will NEVER go back to one without it. You just need to get into a vehicle with it and you very quickly realise the benefit.

I selected the updated 2009 HEMI TC, it works, no shudder and pulls very nicely and all transmission temps dropped significantly (thats important for a number of reasons), and the fuel consumption improved, and engine rpms down accross the board. Ive been down this road and I know what is working. And the price was right.

Its simple, trans cooler, transgo and HEMI type TC is what I can speak for that works for me. Like the last jeep tech that drove my kj said "Christ, this thing drives like the Merc (grand cherokee) was is reference point. One particular further comment from him that I thought was worth noting is that he said that he never thought he would see a kj CRD without engine flaring.

Good luck with your solution search, I know and understand how annoying and frustrating it can be to find it.

I would like to one day try something like GDE simply to sort out injector timing and what appears to be low down over fuelling/under boost but shipping my ECU overseas is not an option for my daily drive requirements at this stage.

I have the lid off a spare TCM at the moment, a few bits of hardware arriving this week too, now what do we have in here amongst all this goop thats useful.......

crdjon,

Is that HEMI TC fully compatible with any KJ CRD sporting the 5-45RFE tranny? I am shopping for a new TC so just want to have all options open...

Thx!

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:39 pm

TDIwyse wrote:

MrMopar, was hoping you could shed some more light on something you posted awhile back in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=45256&hilit=suncoast+fuel&start=20

"A lower K-factor was tested some time ago in various applications to see the effects. We found (scientifically) that the launch performance from a dead stop to 60mph was worse (mainly due to the first 60 feet since the turbo will only spool so fast and, in order to limit the smoke, with no boost the fuel is limited) and also the fuel economy was slightly worse because in city driving off and on the pedal, you had to inject more fuel when pushing on the pedal to move the vehicle at the same rate of acceleration. "

Do you recall about what % of improvement in 0-60 and mpg's you measured with the different K-factor TC's? Thanks.

If holding all things constant and changing only the converter from a 150K to a 135K (lower stall speed), the 0-60mph performance was 7.5% slower, mainly due to launch-ability from zero speed. Also, the fuel consumption at idle in gear was higher due to the increased loading from the T/C and the NVH at slow speeds was noticably worse.

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

Thanks. So was the poorer city fuel economy only due to the idle situation? It seemed from your description that the acceleration phase also required more fuel (for equal acceleration). Or did I misunderstand that?

litton · **Posted:** Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:12 pm

Am I to understand that a Hemi TC is a drop in replacemt?????? it almost makes sense as it's the same tranny but it seems to easy.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:39 pm

TDIwyse wrote:

I've heard feedback from several people with the Suncoast TC that have shudder with the IMII or GDE Hot tune. Haven't heard a single case of shudder with the Euro TC. Not saying it won't be reported, just haven't seen any reports myself.

I recall reading a report from one individual on here that switched from the stock TC to Suncoast with the lower stall speed and had hoped to gain some mpg's with a more efficient transfer of power but did not see an improvement. Perhaps some others have, but the data I've seen doesn't support that.

When break launching my CRD with the Euro TC and the GDE turbo kit for some performance tests I pushed the rpm's to over 2k a couple times . . . no problems.

Yes, the aluminum stator in the Suncoast will sustain higher temps than the composite stator in the Euro TC. But the thermal properties of the Euro TC from my measured data indicates it has some significant design margin.

If Suncoast increases the design margin on their shudder issue, and Mopar keeps raising the cost of the Euro TC, then my conclusion for the best TC would shift to Suncoast . . .

Causes of Shutter with a SunCoast or other Aftermarket Torque Converter:
1) Wrong Fluid 545RFE requires ATF-4.
2) Bad front pump valve see pic below:

You can avoid the problem by fixing the pump or replacing it, your choice.
In the health insurance industry they call this a pre-existing condition.
Replacing the Torque Converter with out fixing or replacing the pump is proof that if you do not do it right, you can screw it up.

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

GDE and myself both are running the highest torque options presently available for the CRD. Both of us have the Euro TC and do not experience shudder. Both of us (last I checked) did not replace the pump . . . just the TC. I'm not sure where you are getting some of your facts from . . .

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:05 pm

Chrysler did not redesign the pump because they were bored one day -
they redesigned it because it had issues even behind the stock engine.
is it a big deal? - probably not
but the labor to pull apart the tranny for the torque converter- it's cheap insurance to add the new pump and eliminate it as a concern.

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

That seems likely. Just wanted to clarify that the shudder I had went away with the Euro TC without a change in the pump, and using the same type of tranny fluid. The only variable was the TC.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:56 pm

TDIwyse wrote:

That seems likely. Just wanted to clarify that the shudder I had went away with the Euro TC without a change in the pump, and using the same type of tranny fluid. The only variable was the TC.

Got your plane ticket to Las Vegas yet?
Better hurry while you still have your luck.
You might win enough to build more toys.
Good Luck :!:

TDIwyse · **Joined:** Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:44 am **Posts:** 91

Sticking to the facts . . . there's several of us on here who have fixed the shudder problem by just going to the Euro TC without having to replace the pump. I do agree with you the correct fluid is also important.

If/when the TC starts going bad or acting up I'll report back. With facts.

Back to more facts on the radical difference in torque pulses for a 4 cylinder vs an 8 cylinder engine from CATCRD's earlier post:

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... ngines.htm

A 4 cylinder engine with 400 ft-lbs of torque has pulses that reach ~375% of that value, or 1500 ft-lbs. It would take an 8 cylinder engine with ~770 ft-lbs of torque to have similiar peak pulses. The flywheels likely radically reduce these excursions but there's no doubt there are unique engineering design requirements for the 4 cylinder application. The new damper springs in the Euro TC (thanks for posting those facts in your pics from the other thread) are radically stiffer (~230% stronger based upon that online calculator I linked in your other thread). This adds significant design margin to the springs bottoming out due to the torque pulses. Just using the damper springs for a Hemi V8 that's rated for higher torque than our CRD's is not necessarily a good thing as the torque pulses are radically different.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:36 am

TDIwyse wrote:

Sticking to the facts . . . there's several of us on here who have fixed the shudder problem by just going to the Euro TC without having to replace the pump. I do agree with you the correct fluid is also important.

If/when the TC starts going bad or acting up I'll report back. With facts.

Back to more facts on the radical difference in torque pulses for a 4 cylinder vs an 8 cylinder engine from CATCRD's earlier post:

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... ngines.htm

A 4 cylinder engine with 400 ft-lbs of torque has pulses that reach ~375% of that value, or 1500 ft-lbs. It would take an 8 cylinder engine with ~770 ft-lbs of torque to have similiar peak pulses. The flywheels likely radically reduce these excursions but there's no doubt there are unique engineering design requirements for the 4 cylinder application. The new damper springs in the Euro TC (thanks for posting those facts in your pics from the other thread) are radically stiffer (~230% stronger based upon that online calculator I linked in your other thread). This adds significant design margin to the springs bottoming out due to the torque pulses. Just using the damper springs for a Hemi V8 that's rated for higher torque than our CRD's is not necessarily a good thing as the torque pulses are radically different.

X2... TC alone cured my problems.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:40 am

J8/Euro should have been stock from day one.

SunCoast and other performance Torque Converters should be the Performance Upgrade for those of us who want it.

We can all agree the original OEM torque converter was a total Bean Counter Engineering fiasco.

The only observed fix in the J8/Euro are the springs.

When I get the time, I will find out the size of the SunCoast dampener springs or what they use instead.

Work comes first, play second.

stoutdog · **Posted:** Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:29 pm

With the risk of stepping into this debate, I'd like to clarify what, I gather, TDIWise and others are saying about the Euro TC. Warp, you've provided a couple of scenarios to explain the cases in which Suncoast TCs have experienced shudder problems, arguing that it is either the wrong fluid or the fact that the owner didn't replace the pump.

The problem with this argument, and I think this is the point that others are trying to get at, is that CRDs running the Euro TC are just as likely to have these same two concerns and have, even then, never experienced shudder under the highest torque tunes available (GDE Turbo & Hot). It seems to me that most Euro TC owners have never touched the pump.... And the variability of running the wrong fluids is a universal concern regardless of what TC you've installed.

That being said, it appears that the Euro TC has held its own where the far more expensive Suncoast TC has failed (even more expensive if you replace the pump and install the Transgo kit). As such, I wouldn't consider the Suncoast TC to be a performance upgrade... not if it can't handle GDE while the Euro TC can.

Just my :2cents:

European Torque Converter Question

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