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Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
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Author:  Drewd [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
Wife made me sell my reliable Ford Taurus when we picked up a "new" 07 Grand Cherokee CRD.... I wish i hadn't because Libby is sick.

Our 06 Liberty CRD has had a consistent oil leak for past 40k miles. I thought it was the rear main seal because the bell housing is soaked all round it and I was going to replace it this summer along with a new torque convertor.

Today, I took removed the Air Flow Control Valve and the intake elbow so i can replace glow plug #3 (I doubt dealership will ever do this if you pay for all 4 replaced but that is another issue).

Here is what i saw:
1. The firewall insulation directly in back of the engine is soaked with oil.
2. The driver's side of the engine just under the glow plugs is soaked with oil.
3. The glow plug harness plugs 3 and 4 connetors (assuming plug up front is #1) are completely soaked with oil.

Question: Can a head gasket leak oil outside of the block without leaking coolant into the oil? The oil leak appears to be coming from the block (driver's side). Wife (my CFO) has authorized a significant amount of money to repair the engine because she would rather spend $4k on an engine repair than buy a new equivalent vehicle.

Any suggestions as to what can be leaking? I suspect that the oil soaked glow plug connectors is why my engine was hard to start when it was cold. All old 4 glow plugs showed 1.3 ohms (normal is .7-1.2) All 4 new glow plugs showed 0.7 ohms. Resistance was measured with a Fluke digital multimeter.

Knowing that there is a bad engine oil leak, I cannot in good conscience sell or trade the vehicle in as much as I'd love to stick it to a dealership for a lowball trade offer and wife wants it fixed.

Any good dealer or independent mechanics in Colorado? I don't mind towing/driving to someone who will do the job right and not rush it because mechanic's flate rate is 1/2 of book rate. I don't have the time or special tools to pull the head myself.

All thoughts and opinions etc.etc.. are welcomed.

Thanks and I hope you don't experience this issue in your CRD.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
Is the leaking oil staining your driveway or something?

Also, I would guess that if its that high up its your "valve cover" gasket leaking, not a headgasket.

requires removable of the whole intake manifold, which can also get a good cleaning.

where are you in colorado?
Author:  Drewd [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
SirSam,

I live in Colorado Springs but can put it back together and drive it anywhere. I'd be more than happy to pay dealership labor rates (not to exceed book) to someone who will do the job right. I'm pretty anal about my maintenance and know that shortcuts are often the norm because many techs working on flat rate.

Yes,Libby leaks oil on the ground and she gets parked on the street (HOA enforcers hate this) so I don't stain my driveway even more than it already is. I've lost about 1/3 quart in past two weeks and that was after adding one quart of oil (5k since oil change). Funny thing is that the oil leak stopped during our Summer trip to Durango area towing a 3k pound trailer (things must got warm on the drive to Ouray) but the leak came back about 1 month after the trip.

I've never heard of a block/head leaking oil on this or other forums and I was certain rear main seal was the culprit (it still possible I have two oil leaks).
Author:  Glend [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
If you have that much mess, it is probably a good idea to clean it all up with degreaser spray and then try to locate the source. Suggest a 'compression leak down test' to see if you've blown a head gasket, and yes an oil galley can leak out that way. Is there any oil in the coolant or water in your oil (ie is it milky brown in colour). Is it possible that your CCV puck is cracked and the oil leaking out from there (I ahve seen one of these just recently).
Author:  Drewd [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
Its not the CCV puck. That side (passenger side) is clean of oil. A dealership tech last year said it was a headgasket (cost me $100 dollars) but I got a second opinion from another dealership tech who agreed with me that the oil pattern on the bellhousing was consistent with a rear main seal leak. Who knows, I may have both.

How far down is the head gasket? Where is the intake assembly gasket in relation to the glow plugs?

Thanks a bunch
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
Drewd wrote:
Its not the CCV puck. That side (passenger side) is clean of oil. A dealership tech last year said it was a headgasket (cost me $100 dollars) but I got a second opinion from another dealership tech who agreed with me that the oil pattern on the bellhousing was consistent with a rear main seal leak. Who knows, I may have both.

How far down is the head gasket? Where is the intake assembly gasket in relation to the glow plugs?

Thanks a bunch


Looking through my photos this is about the best picture I can find of that area, you can see the cast block meeting the head, and above that the meeting of the aluminum intake with the aluminum head. I think to be getting oil on your glow-plugs you would have to be leaking from the valve/intake gasket.

Image
Author:  Drewd [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
Awesome pic. I will edit pic and show where oil is pooling.. Thanks!

Image
Author:  Drewd [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
I don't see where the intake gasket would be...can you highlight it? Is pulling intake a job a person with average mechanic ability can do? (I've pulled engines, replaced tranny's on other vehicles but diesels scare me with all of their plumbing etc...
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
Drewd wrote:
Awesome pic. I will edit pic and show where oil is pooling.. Thanks!

Image


If its in that area then it really does seem like the intake gasket.

Here is another pic, maybe you can see the difference between the head and the intake here.
Image

The only other thing it might be are those plugs at the back of the intake/cam area.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
maybe this will help some more:
Image
Image
Author:  Drewd [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
Sirsam,
Thanks, the pictures sure did clear things up. I agree its the "valve cover gasket" that is leaking and possibly those cam plugs. Regardless, having the cam built into the intake means its a job that I don't have the special tooks to tackle. Am I correct to say that removing the intake assembly means camshft is also removed? Timing belt needs to be removed too to remove intake? If so, I might as well get new timing belt, new water pump, rollers, tensioners, etc..etc...

Its off to the dealership for a quote. As much as I hate having them to do it, I don't have much choice.

Thanks for all of your help.

PS My CAC hose had plenty of oil in it. Any idea why? I'm running a provent and it catches a fair amount of oil between oil changes.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
Drewd.

Since you mentioned it stopped leaking while on a trip last summer then restarted would it be possible that just retorquing the bolts would stop/slow down the leak? "Assuming" the bolts are out in the open it might be something to try.


Joe
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
There are 16 10mm bolts that hold the intake manifold in place. The picture below shows where they are and the torque spec. Checking these may provide an easy cure to your issue...hopefully! The circular torque procedure is not the best in our opinion, a criss-cross pattern would provide a more even torque. Since the side leaking on yours are teh last bolt torqued, maybe they have relaxed over time and just need a good snugging up.

Image
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
Drewd, what Joe and green diesel said, retorquing the bolts should be the first step. Then powerwash the top of the engine with a little gunk engine cleaner is in order. Also check the CCV puck on the back of the head to be sure that isn't the problem, another easy fix.
Author:  onthehunt [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
Steam clean it and put some dye in the oil. Run it and hit it with a UV light. Repair as needed. I never saw a head gasket fixed by re-torquing the bolts. Are they torque-to-yield bolts?
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
onthehunt wrote:
Steam clean it and put some dye in the oil. Run it and hit it with a UV light. Repair as needed. I never saw a head gasket fixed by re-torquing the bolts. Are they torque-to-yield bolts?


This is not a head gasket we are talking about though, its the valve cover/intake manifold we are talking about.
Author:  Drewd [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
I'll check torque and tighten as necessary all of the bolts on the intake manifold this weekend. Should I break torque and retighten them or simply tighten them up. I'm hoping this is a cure or improves things a bit. I can honestly say I will never buy another Jeep product unless Chrysler takes significant steps to improve overall quality. Life pump, fuel filter head, provent CCV etc..etc.. and now this for a 4 year old vehicle is not acceptable in my opinion. Shoot, my VW TDI's were more reliable than our Jeep Liberty CRD. I, of course, say this after i got an 07 GC CRD in the driveway :-) Why can't Honda or Nissan bring over a diesel SUV?

The leaking oil had softened fuel return lines significantly and I will also be replacing them.

Thanks for all of the advice. If this doesn't fix it, any takers in Colorado on the repair job? Wife went into the dealership this morning and was not impressed by the idiot (her words) she dealt with at the service counter.
Author:  geordi [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
Drewd wrote:
I'll check torque and tighten as necessary all of the bolts on the intake manifold this weekend. Should I break torque and retighten them or simply tighten them up. I'm hoping this is a cure or improves things a bit. I can honestly say I will never buy another Jeep product unless Chrysler takes significant steps to improve overall quality. Life pump, fuel filter head, provent CCV etc..etc.. and now this for a 4 year old vehicle is not acceptable in my opinion. Shoot, my VW TDI's were more reliable than our Jeep Liberty CRD. I, of course, say this after i got an 07 GC CRD in the driveway :-) Why can't Honda or Nissan bring over a diesel SUV?

The leaking oil had softened fuel return lines significantly and I will also be replacing them.

Thanks for all of the advice. If this doesn't fix it, any takers in Colorado on the repair job? Wife went into the dealership this morning and was not impressed by the idiot (her words) she dealt with at the service counter.



I'd have to agree with your assessment of the Chrysler quality, both in vehicles and in attempt-at-service departments. A badly engineered German car is like a visit with the Original Santa Claus - Impossible to find. I flogged my TDI Jetta like a go-kart for 150k miles and it never failed me once.

At the same time, I think Toyota and Nissan won't bring over any oil burners b/c they are falling into the same misconception of the Big Three: Fat Americans want bigger and bigger vehicles. Either that, or they wouldn't be able to make them fast enough to keep up with the demand. Witness Mopar selling every single CRD unit, without ANY advertising at all. Just like the Prius. Have you seen ANY advertising for a Prius in the last 5 years or so?

It does sound like you have a loose intake stud, I would break them loose and then go back in and torque them properly, one by one. Don't loosen them all at once, or the seal really WILL be un-done.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
geordi wrote:
Have you seen ANY advertising for a Prius in the last 5 years or so?.


Yes, just yesterday in fact.
Author:  geordi [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Leak, is this the end for me? Advice desperately needed
Sir Sam wrote:
geordi wrote:
Have you seen ANY advertising for a Prius in the last 5 years or so?.


Yes, just yesterday in fact.


Recall news doesn't count. :goink:

I'm surprised, I watch programming direct from both NYC and LA, and can't recall seeing any prius ads anytime recently.
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