hard starting

craneman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:16 pm

Need an opinion on hard starting. i have replaced my fuel filter with the racor setup and ever since that i have had a tough time starting. it will start innitally but only run for about 20 seconds and then shuts down, like it got a gulp of air. could this be the fuel pump? i have been over the racor more than once, looking for leaks, cant seem to find one. any sugestions. thanks

BVCRD · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:28 pm

you could try to bleed more air out of it. I pump the primer 3-4 times then let the air out and repeat until I get only fuel. If you do this and still have air coming out, obviously you have an air leak and you will need to recheck the torque on the filter etc.

craneman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:53 pm

Thanks for the thought but if i have to prime the filter everytime i want to start it, i might as well junk it. the better half would never go for that. i was sure that the racor would eleminate any fuel problems but it seems to have just made the problem worse.

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:11 pm

BVCRD wrote:

you could try to bleed more air out of it. I pump the primer 3-4 times then let the air out and repeat until I get only fuel. If you do this and still have air coming out, obviously you have an air leak and you will need to recheck the torque on the filter etc.

I think this is a troubleshooting procedure to SEE if you have a leak, not something you would have to do every time. I would try this unless you already know you don't have any air in the system.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:17 pm

kapalczynski wrote:

BVCRD wrote:

you could try to bleed more air out of it. I pump the primer 3-4 times then let the air out and repeat until I get only fuel. If you do this and still have air coming out, obviously you have an air leak and you will need to recheck the torque on the filter etc.

I think this is a troubleshooting procedure to SEE if you have a leak, not something you would have to do every time. I would try this unless you already know you don't have any air in the system.

Yes, that is where I was going with this. I bleed the air out of my leaky stock setup once a week. Been doing that for 55,000 miles. It gets old, but what are you going to do? Lift pump, replace fuel lines etc. Yes, you could do that....or just bleed away every 500 miles.

craneman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:51 pm

ok i got you, the problem is this happens every day. if i run the thing and it sits overnight i have the same issue the next day. i was fishing for some thought on the fuel pump. if it is going bad would it allow air into the system. that may lead to air in the filter when it sits for a time. by the way where did you get those nice badges on the fender of your ride? very cool.

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:02 pm

Add an small inline flow through lift pump.... that should get rid of the air in the lines.

If you do a search on this forum you will find a few write ups on it.

It's a simple install.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:09 pm

craneman wrote:

ok i got you, the problem is this happens every day. if i run the thing and it sits overnight i have the same issue the next day. i was fishing for some thought on the fuel pump. if it is going bad would it allow air into the system. that may lead to air in the filter when it sits for a time. by the way where did you get those nice badges on the fender of your ride? very cool.

I can bleed mine, run down the road a few miles and come back, find more air in that short amount of time. It always starts though. If it is so bad that yours won't start, you have a serious leak and it should be dripping somewhere.

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:11 pm

BVCRD wrote:

I can bleed mine, run down the road a few miles and come back, find more air in that short amount of time. It always starts though. If it is so bad that yours won't start, you have a serious leak and it should be dripping somewhere.

I'm not sure you will see fuel leaking even with a decent leak. Fuel is thick, air is thin. only takes a small leak to be "big" and let a lot of air in, but that same leak may not even drip fuel at a rate you can notice.

First of all...Disclaimer***As I said before, I am not a Mopar tech or any sort of Diesel guy (this is my first, but liking it so far).

The lift pump idea has been well received, but here are my thoughts:

The current OEM setup pulls fuel (thus a leak lets air in right?). A lift pump will pressurize your system and may seem to fix the issue, but is doing so your leak that let air in will now push fuel out. In the long run when the leak gets worse (or now if it is significant) you could end up dripping fuel. Of course if that was the case it WOULD help you find your leak. lol

BVCRD · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:16 pm

^ I was just saying that a leak so big as to let enough air in to stall the engine (won't let it start) might be visible.

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:20 pm

craneman wrote:

ok i got you, the problem is this happens every day. if i run the thing and it sits overnight i have the same issue the next day. i was fishing for some thought on the fuel pump. if it is going bad would it allow air into the system. that may lead to air in the filter when it sits for a time. by the way where did you get those nice badges on the fender of your ride? very cool.

Ha Ha thanks! I worked hard on them. I'll post a few pics, but they were originally off a mercedes diesel car, not sure on the year, etc.

On the pump leaking thing, I have no idea because I don't even know where it is. If the leak is in the pump itself then I believe it could be the culpret? Also saw this on a different writeup on fuel leak problems:

From: http://www.topix.com/forum/autos/jeep-liberty/T9SFPBGK58K8613UJ

Quote:

Have the "stealership" replace the Fuel Filter Housing Assembly...it is probably leaking at the heater solenoid

So maybe the issue is there...He makes it sound like a common issue with them?

Emblem Pics:

Before removing the faded black paint

After polising/buffing w/jewelry grit (these are solid aluminum)

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:25 pm

BVCRD wrote:

^ I was just saying that a leak so big as to let enough air in to stall the engine (won't let it start) might be visible.

Quite probably, and possibly more so if you let it sit for awhile longer...maybe you will find a puddle eventually, maybe not. Is there any feasible way one could somehow hook a vacuum pump (like from autozone, Advanced, etc) on the engine side of the line, plug the end at the tank, and listened carefully for a leak? You might be able to find the source that way?

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:30 pm

I was perusing GDE forum and found this post from them regarding lift pumps (and they are DEFINATELY a lot smarter than me...lol):

From: http://www.greendieselengineering.com/forum/posts/list/23.page#113

Quote:

If the vehicle is functioning correctly there is no need for a lift pump. Our vehicles have been updated with the new fuel filter head assembly that fixes the fuel heater circuit wiring issue so the system will not pull air through the filter unit. It is important to change the fuel filter as recommended in the service manual to prevent a large pressure drop across the filter unit.

If one is having issues with hard starting, or engine shut-off due to fuel starvation there is a leak in the fuel system somewhere. We would recommend [finding the] root causing the leak, but a lift pump would also address the issue. Our concern with the lift pump is having positive pressure on a fuel system that could possibly have a leak, there is a possibility that the pump could push fuel out the leak path onto the ground or in the engine compartment...this could lead to a potential fire hazard. The lift pump should be very low pressure, 2-4 psi would be plenty.

The system was designed not to need the lift pump, but the system also has potential for leaks so this is catch 22 and requires preventative maintenance.

Thought this might be good info to think over...

CRDMiller · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:16 pm

This has been rehashed repeatedly, but here it is again.

Because the stock and upgraded oem fuel heads are the highest object in the fuel system, air will collect there.

The quick disconnects near the fuel tank allow air to enter the fuel system, they are not made for suction.
You can add a transfer pump between the tank and the primary fuel filter and water separator.
And all will be fine, however you may still collect air at the head over time, this is negated by the cp3's burping action upon start up.

If you add a lift pump in the tank, you should be golden.

If you have the stock factory non upgraded fuel/water separator/filter and heater, and you have air in your head, you will, eventually, melt the heater plug, and you WILL suck air and leak fuel, eventually.

1. In tank lift pump
or
2. Upgraded oem head and a transfer pump (behind the battery is a good place).

I went for 2 and added a secondary filter, one day i may drop the skid and hitch and go for number 1.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:50 pm

CRDMiller wrote:

This has been rehashed repeatedly, but here it is again.

Because the stock and upgraded oem fuel heads are the highest object in the fuel system, air will collect there.

The quick disconnects near the fuel tank allow air to enter the fuel system, they are not made for suction.
You can add a transfer pump between the tank and the primary fuel filter and water separator.
And all will be fine, however you may still collect air at the head over time, this is negated by the cp3's burping action upon start up.

If you add a lift pump in the tank, you should be golden.

If you have the stock factory non upgraded fuel/water separator/filter and heater, and you have air in your head, you will, eventually, melt the heater plug, and you WILL suck air and leak fuel, eventually.

1. In tank lift pump
or
2. Upgraded oem head and a transfer pump (behind the battery is a good place).

I went for 2 and added a secondary filter, one day i may drop the skid and hitch and go for number 1.

#3. Stay with the stock unit and bleed your booty off like many still do. Oh, I know it will leak someday just from having to bleed once a week, but not today.

CRDMiller · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:04 pm

Nothing wrong with number 3, at all.

Except for when it catches on fire, or you experience a loss of power in the worst possible moment.

There has been at least one NTSB investigation into the oem head leaking and causing fires.

Everyone here was unplugging their heaters

And then the new heads came out, but there was no recall.

I just want you to be aware of the possible results of your actions.
I know however that there are many crd's on the road with stock fuel systems and they don't have any problems.

If you unplug your fuel heater and hit the primer, and fuel comes out of the electrical connection, or if your connectors are blackened or the housing is melted, you need to do something about it.

Drewd · **Joined:** Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:24 pm **Posts:** 902

Benefits of lift pump:
1. Easier starting
2. More reponsive go pedal response
3. Easier to prime new filter after filter change
4. Possibility it will extend life of CP3

I actually disagree with GDE on this issue.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:56 pm

CRDMiller wrote:

Nothing wrong with number 3, at all.

Except for when it catches on fire, or you experience a loss of power in the worst possible moment.

There has been at least one NTSB investigation into the oem head leaking and causing fires.

Everyone here was unplugging their heaters

And then the new heads came out, but there was no recall.

I just want you to be aware of the possible results of your actions.
I know however that there are many crd's on the road with stock fuel systems and they don't have any problems.

If you unplug your fuel heater and hit the primer, and fuel comes out of the electrical connection, or if your connectors are blackened or the housing is melted, you need to do something about it.

I hear you. I check it often just waiting for the day I will see seapage, but not yet. I have babied this thing for 65000 miles. Maybe the constant burping has bought me some time. BTW, this has probably been discussed, but let's say, during the summer, I unplugged the heater connection. Will that cause a light to come on?

Drewd · **Joined:** Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:24 pm **Posts:** 902

No, unplugging heater won't cause any issues. I absolutely love my RACOR, it has a 200 watt fuel heater, never leaks fuel or air, accepts a temp sensor, and has a built in water in fuel sensor, and fuel filter lasts a very long time. I leave my RACOR fuel filter in for 50k miles and when I inspected the filter, the pleats looked great and could have filtered longer.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:18 pm

Drewd wrote:

when I inspected the filter, the pleats looked great and could have filtered longer.

Does that mean that it wasn't catching anything?

Kind of like "I love how my K&N stays clean so long!"

Just razzin ya.

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