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dies while trying to accelerate :(
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=51037		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  dkenny [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  dies while trying to accelerate :(
I have been trying to get it running right for the past week.

symptoms.
idles fine
new fuel filter in a Racor filter head.
while trying to accelerate the boost builds then it start to miss and most times will die. it also does this with a limit pump pushing 12psi after the filter.

with a vacuum pressure gauge connected to the output of the filter. it holds about 1 inch of vacuum. all the time.
I have check the cac hoses. they're fine.
removed and clean the EGR..
cleaned the map sensor
clean and tested the air box sensor( measured the voltage with using a hand vacuum pump ). voltage went down.

next I'm checking the FCV and pressure testing the fuel lines from the rear to head.

the only code that keeps coming up is p0093..major fuel leak.

any thing else I should check or just get out the shot gun and shoot it?

-dkenny
Author:  geordi [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
Major fuel leak is the code for air in the fuel. Do you have a lift pump? You need one, that will solve this problem. It is fuel starvation, the demand is outstripping the flow ability. Possibly too much filtration, restricting the suction capability of the factory gear lift pump which is in the CP3.
Author:  dkenny [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
had one in place same problem..it could be the lift pump..but its only about 60 days old. and putting a holley blue before the filter, near the filter head, hasn't helped. with the holley it was running about 12 psi on the output of the filter. this pressure didn't drop while trying to accelerate.

I'm not ruling out something with the lines themselves.. I just haven't checked them yet.

-dkenny
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
Have you tried to remove all together the lift pump and run the line back together in the factory configuration to see if it still happens?

Also, 12psi at the inlet of the high pressure pump is going to be much too high and could be part of the problem too.
Author:  dkenny [ Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
unfortunately that's the way it is right now..and same problem.
no lift pump and factory lines, just a Racor filter head.

-dkenny
Author:  dkenny [ Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
the plot thickens.

tonight I decided to try bypassing the stock fuel lines. using a 6 gallon diesel can and a 20 clear pvc hose. I connected the hose first to the tank to metal pipe connection in the rear..no better..so I decided to try connecting directly to the inlet of the racor filter head. don't want to test run without a filter. but while I was priming or trying to prime using the holley blue pump. this pump was connected to one of the two output of the filter head.
I say trying to prime..I saw no air entering the filter head but lots leaving the head..huh??

I pulled the Racor filter head..connect the in to the out and pressurized and vacuum the other output..no problems.
then I put a manual vacuum pump to the rubber hose that leads to the injector pump..pulled a vacuum..but doesn't hold one..slowly leaks..but from where?? looking at the hose it might be hose itself right where it connects to the filter head..tomorrow I shorten the hose by an inch and test again..

I really hope this is it.. :)

-dkenny
Author:  dkenny [ Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
well its gotten worse not better..

now it won't start..doesn't even try to fire a cylinder. cranks fine..had the battery on charge over night. tried jumper cables..still no go.

from the vacuum pressure gauge I can tell the CP3 gear pump is sucking fuel..

I swapped the ASD relay with the one closer to the front. check the 30amp fuse

cracking open the feed line fitting to the common rail and crank I get fuel out.

help..what else do I need to check?

-dkenny
Author:  RJM [ Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
any codes?
Author:  dkenny [ Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
this jeep not start has got me all bothered..of course you need codes.. :banghead: what was I thinking

at the moment
1140
0107
0113
0193
0093

I have had the MAF sensor unpluged
FCV valve unpluged
the MAP and the fuel rail pressure

the only one that keep coming back is the 0093, but I have bled the fuel lines and it has a new filter.
also the a lift pump is back in place. it runs about 10 psi with just the pump, 7-8psi while cranking..I'd love to say the psi at idle but it won't start. it will run if I use starting ether..not good for it I know but it does rule out valves, timing, pistons and other things that have to be right for running.

is there a way to purge air from the CP3?

-dkenny
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
You have the rail pressure sensor unplugged? Plug that back in, without it you'll cause lots of issues. Same for the MAP/Boost Pressure Sensor.

Before the ECU will allow the injectors to start delivering fuel, it has to see a minimum rail pressure. If you're sensor is unplugged, the ECU has no way to know what the pressure is.

Also, there might be a chance that the box you had installed previously somehow damaged the rail pressure sensor?
Author:  RJM [ Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
If I am reading this right, do you have the pump connected to the clean side of the filter??
Author:  dkenny [ Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
no..its connected to the supply line from the tank..to the input of the filter. from the filter to the cp3.

I just checked the ASD..its seems to be working. pulling the relay will not allow it crank.

it still doesn't want to fire..injector pump?
I think I'll try to monitor the fuel pressure sensor while its cranking.

-dkenny
Author:  dkenny [ Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
well..trying to measure the rail pressure with my scanner tool..no sure it works..while cranking it reads 0, but right after I stop it read 400-600kPa...while running the other day it was 35000KPa.

could the fuel quality solenoid cause the ip to not generator enough pressure? any one know a way to test it.

-dkenny
Author:  MrMopar64 [ Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
The metering unit on the pump will be fully open with no current. Just unplug it: if it starts, there is some internal problem.

The other possibility for not building rail pressure is the pressure control valve (at the end of the rail) isn't staying closed and, thus, the rail pressure isn't building.

The metering unit is the easiest and cheapest to check/replace. If the PCV is bad it's recommended to replace the rail which should come with a new valve and pressure sensor.
Author:  geordi [ Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
I have a spare rail that is in good shape, with the sensor on the end (guessing that is the Pressure Control Valve) but it does not have the sensor on the side, which should be the rail pressure sensor. Sounds like your rail pressure sensor isn't the problem tho, if it was reading something before.

This may not be helpful, I'm not that familiar with the CP3 pump design... But I was having a similar "runs great when running but really hard to start unless it got a quick shot of ether" situation on my TDI Jetta. Turned out, there was an internal seal somewhere between the low pressure intake pump and the high pressure pump INSIDE the pump itself.

Something had happened to that seal, and at cranking speeds of 250-300 rpm, the pump was *just barely* not making enough pressure transfer to open the injectors - So no boom in the cylinders.

But I could crack the lines all I wanted and get drenched in fuel spray... But no boom, so no vroom. This might be a similar problem here, I don't know. IF you are game... I also have another CP3 (I'm fairly certain) from my engine replacement. You could send that off to your local diesel pump shop for a rebuild or swap it in on yours, and have yours rebuilt. That is the good thing about these components - They can be rebuilt.
Author:  dkenny [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
MrMopar64,
I'll try that this morning. thanks..I hope it helps

geordi, thanks I might drive up and get the parts. it does sound like a seal or something..maybe too much air caused a lack of lubrication. I do get fuel to the rail, but enough pressure?
there is another friend from infopop that I would like to go visit. he posts on infopop as Double D. I wonder if there is a place in Raleigh that can rebuild the pumps? just the fact that they can be rebuilt instead of just replaced is good news. I wonder if I can get the parts?

off to try unplugging the solenoid..if that doesn't work then removing it

thanks for the help
-dkenny
Author:  dkenny [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
well unplugging the solenoid didn't help. next I'm going to remove just in case its stuck.

-dkenny
Author:  RJM [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
dkenny wrote:
I have been trying to get it running right for the past week.

symptoms.
idles fine
new fuel filter in a Racor filter head.
while trying to accelerate the boost builds then it start to miss and most times will die. it also does this with a limit pump pushing 12psi after the filter.

with a vacuum pressure gauge connected to the output of the filter. it holds about 1 inch of vacuum. all the time.
I have check the cac hoses. they're fine.
removed and clean the EGR..
cleaned the map sensor
clean and tested the air box sensor( measured the voltage with using a hand vacuum pump ). voltage went down.

next I'm checking the FCV and pressure testing the fuel lines from the rear to head.

the only code that keeps coming up is p0093..major fuel leak.

any thing else I should check or just get out the shot gun and shoot it?

-dkenny


IMO and after reading the entire thread, I think your problem relates back to the symptoms before it died, the new racor head, and perhaps the install of your fuel pump. I assume that the pump is not mounted anywhere near the tank. The tank connections are prone to vac. leaks, and are designed to function under pressure. you may have slugged up a ton of air and are just having problems getting proper prime. The original 0093 code is a sure indication of that. If it were me I would put everything back to stock. clear the codes, bleed the system well, crank away and see if any new codes pop up. :2cents:
Author:  geordi [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
RJM wrote:
IMO and after reading the entire thread, I think your problem relates back to the symptoms before it died, the new racor head, and perhaps the install of your fuel pump. I assume that the pump is not mounted anywhere near the tank. The tank connections are prone to vac. leaks, and are designed to function under pressure. you may have slugged up a ton of air and are just having problems getting proper prime. The original 0093 code is a sure indication of that. If it were me I would put everything back to stock. clear the codes, bleed the system well, crank away and see if any new codes pop up. :2cents:


I would agree with you... Except for my own experience with my VE pump on the Jetta. On TDI Club, a few people kept pointing at the pump as the source of the problem, even when I had another well-respected member on there physically wrenching on the thing with me, and he didn't think it was the pump either. Add in a professional mechanic, and you have a collection of brains all adding up the symptoms and never finding the true cause.

It was hard to start, but ran GREAT when running. Turns out, after getting the pump rebuilt (the shop thought it might have been the swap from LSD to ULSD and the change in lubricant that caused seal failure) that the Jetta ran even better after.

Here is a super-fast way to verify what is going on here however - IV bottle. Get a 5 gallon can of fresh diesel, disconnect the outgoing fuel line from the filter head (the one that goes directly to the CP3) and extend it into the 5 gallon can. Plug the filter line with a bolt, or extend that into another can so it doesn't make a mess from your lift pump. No filters, no extra pumps, just a non-pressurized can of diesel being sucked up by the CP3 and a very long straw. If you have a vacuum pump, drawing a vacuum from the fuel rail's return line should prime the CP3 and drench it in lubricating fuel. You can ask it to self-prime from intermittent cranking of the engine... But I would avoid this if possible.

The purpose of this is to isolate EVERYTHING back to the basics - Just the pump. If the pump is bad, no amount of cranking will make it fire. If it starts and runs, sucking from that fresh bottle... Then the problem is elsewhere.

Clear vinyl hose won't last more than a few weeks in the presence of fuel, but is cheap and will last long enough to let you SEE what is actually moving around here. You need this information at this point before big $$$ come into play.

I spent over $2000 trying to get my Jetta's hard-to-start issue resolved, including $500 labor rebuilding the pump. Save yourself the other $1500, try this.
Author:  RJM [ Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dies while trying to accelerate :(
Correct me if I am wrong , but if you clear the codes, bleed the air out and crank, would you not get a code if the rail was not pressurized enough to fire the injectors, thus indicating a problem with the injection pump?
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