What the? $1,150 for an EGR valve?

BodhiBenz1987 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:39 am

... so the dealership just gave me a friendly ring to casually let me know my CRD needs an EGR valve, seal, turbo hose and EGR hose, and all for the bargain price of $1,150. I asked how much of it is labor and was told over $600. What has to happen to make this a $600 job? Normally I'd get angry and try to do it myself, but my favorite Mercedes needs a bunch of work, my other Mercedes is not the most reliable thing in the world, and it's not very warm out here. Anyone done this job that can reflect on what makes it so hard?

linewarbr · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:40 pm

You could save $600 and buy a GDE tune that will allow you to not need the EGR, or install an SEGR (Savings of $800+). Both should solve your problem adequately.

BodhiBenz1987 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:57 pm

linewarbr wrote:

You could save $600 and buy a GDE tune that will allow you to not need the EGR, or install an SEGR (Savings of $800+). Both should solve your problem adequately.

I'd read about and considered the SEGR before ... I just kind of put it on the back burner as I was restoring my other car at the time. I'm not sure exactly how my EGR has failed, but if it's stuck open, would the SEGR still be able to disable it? Forgive me if that's a silly question ... I'm more familiar with the EGR setup on my 87 Mercedes, which I know is a lot different.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:28 pm

I would even doubt the dealer's diagnosis of what parts need to be replaced. Early on, a lot of bad FCVs were misdiagnosed as bad EGR valves. The nomenclature in the service manual helps to confuse the names of the two devices.

Could you post what symptoms you are having? And what are the part numbers of the things the stealer says you need?

BodhiBenz1987 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:00 pm

CATCRD wrote:

I would even doubt the dealer's diagnosis of what parts need to be replaced. Early on, a lot of bad FCVs were misdiagnosed as bad EGR valves. The nomenclature in the service manual helps to confuse the names of the two devices.

Could you post what symptoms you are having? And what are the part numbers of the things the stealer says you need?

Symptoms: CEL. Felt a little sluggish and was getting 17.5-18 mpg instead of the usual 19-21 this time of year (city winter driving). Other than that, nothing. I only talked to the service manager over the phone so I didn't get an actual parts list ... I'm going to swing by over work and try to talk to him in person ... I hate discussing technical things over the phone, especially with a service department that generally never wants to explain anything to me in detail.

I'll re-post with more details if possible. I'm on the edge of just throwing the money at it and moving on ... this is a really bad time for me and I'm not sure I can even deal with it. In the future, I think I'm going to invest in the SEGR and find a more reasonable place to get this vehicle serviced.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:43 pm

What's the code for the CEL? If it is "EGR flow insufficient" then it is likely stuck in the closed position, making it a perfect candidate for an EGR-ectomy.

click23 · **Joined:** Thu May 11, 2006 9:22 am **Posts:** 309

BodhiBenz1987 wrote:

... I asked how much of it is labor and was told over $600.

I would ask them to break that down, according to Alldata it is a 3.6 hour job to replace the EGR valve, out of warranty, in warranty it is 2.3 hours. Isn't it amazing that cars with a warranty are magically easier for the techs to work on.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:04 pm

Somebody care to explain how the EGR valve works, and what specifically it does? Also, I have my MAF sensor unplugged upon advice of others here...which is said to disable the EGR. Does that mean that basically the EGR just stays open all the time now? A little education is needed here.... :?:

click23 · **Joined:** Thu May 11, 2006 9:22 am **Posts:** 309

From the FSM

The task of the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) is to regulate the fresh air supply to the engine by means of the exhaust gas recirculation system, in favor of clean combustion. The EGR system reduces oxides of nitrogen (NOx) in the engine exhaust. This is accomplished by allowing a predetermined amount of hot exhaust gas to recirculate and dilute the incoming charge air.

A malfunctioning EGR system can cause engine stumble, sags, or hesitation, rough idle, engine stalling and poor driveability.

OPERATION
The system consists of:
*A EGR valve assembly. The valve is located on the left side of the engine below the intake manifold.
*A EGR Cooler. The cooler is located on the left side of the engine below the intake manifold.
*A EGR air flow control valve. The EGR air flow control valve is located in the air inlet between the charge air inlet and the intake manifold. The air control valve is used to increase the EGR flow rate at low engine speeds.
*The ECM operates and monitors the EGR valve and air flow control valve. The ECM is located in the left-rear side of the engine compartment.

The ECM will monitor and determine the positioning of the EGR valve and air control valve by internal programming defined during engine development. This will depend on inputs from the engine coolant temperature, engine load, fuel quantity, throttle position and engine speed sensors. The air control valve blends the incoming charge air and the cooled and recirculated EGR gasses, to be used again in the combustion chamber.

Exhaust gas recirculation will begin in this order when:
*The ECM determines that EGR system operation is necessary.
*The inlet seat (poppet valve) at the bottom of the EGR valve opens to dilute and recirculate exhaust gas back into the intake manifold.
*The EGR Cooler further cools the hot exhaust gasses before recirculation

The EGR system will be shut down by the ECM after 60 seconds of continuous engine idling to improve idle quality and the air flow control valve will close completely when the vehicle is shut off to assist with engine shake on shut down.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:28 pm

Let's see if I can do this justice; I learned it from gmctd mainly, who is now a freedom-fighting refuge in Central America with Che Guevera's illegitimate son, who turned out to be a staunch right-winger.

The EGR is an EPA-mandated emissions control device. It is an electronically-controlled (solenoid) valve on the exhaust manifold that is integrated with a "cooler" mechanism that uses the vehicles' coolant. There is a pipe leading around the back of the engine to the intake where it is integrated with the Flow Control Valve. Based on readings from the MAF, the ECU (in stock configuration) determines when to open the EGR valve. Simultaneously, the FCV (Flow Control Valve) at the intake opening opens to create suction to pull exhaust gases in.

The EGR only operates at partial-throttle conditions, such as unaggressive city driving, and highway driving. It does not operate at idle or at WOT. (Wide Open Throttle) An EGR in a gasser is not bad, since gassers do not produce soot, but in a diesel, that soot causes buildup around the valve mechanism itself, causing it to have less "room" to actuate over time and eventually become stuck closed or partially open. That soot also goes all up in your intake, which - once combined with the oil mist from the CCV (CranckCase Vent) - creates sticky sludge that saps performance and fuel economy.

That is why disabling the MAF causes the EGR to not open, since what the computer uses to operate it is giving no parameters. Conversely, it also disables the FCV, which leads to rough shutdowns and can cause premature motor mount loosening. But the extra performance (since only good clean AIR is going into the engine) and mpg more than offset the potential of having to buy a deep socket and cheater bar to tighten a motor mount.

That also explains why the OP's (Original Poster's) dealer quoted such a high price. They want to replace the entire assembly - the EGR valve, cooling lines, pipe, and FCV. Read: $$$$

Epix · **Joined:** Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:27 pm **Posts:** 1

click23 wrote:

BodhiBenz1987 wrote:

... I asked how much of it is labor and was told over $600.

I would ask them to break that down, according to Alldata it is a 3.6 hour job to replace the EGR valve, out of warranty, in warranty it is 2.3 hours. Isn't it amazing that cars with a warranty are magically easier for the techs to work on.

I apologize for this being my first post, but I just want to help shed some light on the statement you just made.

2.3 hours is what Chrysler pays the dealership to replace the egr valve under warranty. Warranty time verses actual time is WAY lower. 95% of the time, what Chrysler pays for a warranty repair is no where near what it takes to actually complete the repair. I'm talking about Verifying the concern, diagnosing, repairing, and test driving the vehicle. It's not magically easier, Chrysler doesn't pay what it really takes to complete the repair.

When it's a customer pay job the higher cost of labor is covering all the steps of the repair procedure and its also buying you protection against the technician hauling booty through the job and doing it incorrectly. Not to mention if its customer pay and the concern hasn't been fixed when you leave, they have to fix it. I know a lot of people on here are going to say that the technicians at dealerships are a joke. That is true for some techs, but not the majority. Anyone can ask a few of the service advisers what tech's been around the longest, whose the diesel tech on each team, who has the most experience, etc. Once you know what tech is the best for the job all you have to do is request for that tech to do the job.

The only unfortunate part about dealerships is their EXTREMELY HIGH labor rates. When I left the Dodge Chrysler Jeep dealership I was at for 5 years in South Florida, their labor rates were $116.00 an hour. Customer pay jobs were out of the question. If it wasn't covered under warranty, you weren't getting any work.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:04 pm

linewarbr wrote:

Let's see if I can do this justice; I learned it from gmctd mainly, who is now a freedom-fighting refuge in Central America with Che Guevera's illegitimate son, who turned out to be a staunch right-winger.

The EGR is an EPA-mandated emissions control device. It is an electronically-controlled (solenoid) valve on the exhaust manifold that is integrated with a "cooler" mechanism that uses the vehicles' coolant. There is a pipe leading around the back of the engine to the intake where it is integrated with the Flow Control Valve. Based on readings from the MAF, the ECU (in stock configuration) determines when to open the EGR valve. Simultaneously, the FCV (Flow Control Valve) at the intake opening closes partially to create suction to pull exhaust gases in.

The EGR only operates at partial-throttle conditions, such as unaggressive city driving, and highway driving. It does not operate at idle or at WOT. (Wide Open Throttle) An EGR in a gasser is not bad, since gassers do not produce soot, but in a diesel, that soot causes buildup around the valve mechanism itself, causing it to have less "room" to actuate over time and eventually become stuck closed or partially open. That soot also goes all up in your intake, which - once combined with the oil mist from the CCV (CranckCase Vent) - creates sticky sludge that saps performance and fuel economy.

That is why disabling the MAF causes the EGR to not open, since what the computer uses to operate it is giving no parameters. It does not disable the FCV shutdown function.

That also explains why the OP's (Original Poster's) dealer quoted such a high price. They want to replace the entire assembly - the EGR valve, cooling lines, pipe, and FCV. Read: $$$$

Some corrections in bold.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:09 pm

BodhiBenz1987 wrote:

CATCRD wrote:

I would even doubt the dealer's diagnosis of what parts need to be replaced. Early on, a lot of bad FCVs were misdiagnosed as bad EGR valves. The nomenclature in the service manual helps to confuse the names of the two devices.

Could you post what symptoms you are having? And what are the part numbers of the things the stealer says you need?

Symptoms: CEL. Felt a little sluggish and was getting 17.5-18 mpg instead of the usual 19-21 this time of year (city winter driving). Other than that, nothing. I only talked to the service manager over the phone so I didn't get an actual parts list ... I'm going to swing by over work and try to talk to him in person ... I hate discussing technical things over the phone, especially with a service department that generally never wants to explain anything to me in detail.

I'll re-post with more details if possible. I'm on the edge of just throwing the money at it and moving on ... this is a really bad time for me and I'm not sure I can even deal with it. In the future, I think I'm going to invest in the SEGR and find a more reasonable place to get this vehicle serviced.

Ask them to give you the specific code related to the CEL. Pxxxx or whatever.
Also ask for a breakdown of what part numbers are to be replaced.
Post them here.

Any more tailpipe smoke than usual? It's weird that they want to replace the CAC hoses as well as the EGR valve. The odds of both of those being bad at the same time are pretty slim.

BodhiBenz1987 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:12 am

Thanks for all the input guys. It helps me to have a better understanding of the system's components and function. I'm not sure if they gave me the codes or not, since I left one of the papers they gave me in my car (I'm at work until 1:30 or 2). Here is a list of the parts as they appear on the sheet the dealer gave me:
5166555-AB Valve EGR 1403802, $230
5142815-AA Gasket EG 9001004 $5
55038729-AA Hose Char 7014005 $180
55037730-AD Hose Char 7014005 $125
I'll update with the information they gave me breaking down the labor. I already paid them $95 to tell me I need $1,150 worth of work ...

I did not notice an unusual amount of tailpipe smoke, although it can be hard to see going down the highway. I didn't notice anyone giving me dirty looks because of the black junk coming out of my car. I guess it would help to know if it's stuck open or stuck shut ... because if it's stuck open, an SEGR wouldn't help, would it?

nescosmo · **Joined:** Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:17 pm **Posts:** 202

What I did on mine was that I install the SEGR and then loose the two bolts that came from the exust pipe and install a small cover plate in between the bolts to cover the hole. It work like a new.
Since then my Map never need cleaning.

UFO · **Posted:** Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:54 pm

Wow, they are charging more for dealer intercooler hoses than Samco units.

click23 · **Joined:** Thu May 11, 2006 9:22 am **Posts:** 309

Epix wrote:

2.3 hours is what Chrysler pays the dealership to replace the egr valve under warranty. Warranty time verses actual time is WAY lower. 95% of the time, what Chrysler pays for a warranty repair is no where near what it takes to actually complete the repair. I'm talking about Verifying the concern, diagnosing, repairing, and test driving the vehicle. It's not magically easier, Chrysler doesn't pay what it really takes to complete the repair.

I think you missed the scarcasm in my post :-)r

I would try to find another dealer, they are charging above list price for those parts:

5166555-AB Valve EGR 1403802, $230 Lists for $220 moparpartsamerica $145.86
5142815-AA Gasket EG 9001004 $5 Lists for $2.85 moparpartsamerica $1.88
55038729-AA Hose Char 7014005 $180 Lists for $174 moparpartsamerica $114.92
55037730-AD Hose Char 7014005 $125 Lists for $106 moparpartsamerica $69.95

CATCRD · **Posted:** Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:05 pm

The last two in your list are the intercooler hoses. They are taking a shotgun approach in replacing all those things at once, or just trying to make parts margin off of you. The hoses are either bad, or they aren't. You can take them off yourself to inspect them for splits or softening. If you don't have wooshing noises, loss of power, and black smoke when you gun it, then they are probably fine.

BodhiBenz1987 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:05 pm

I suspected the parts prices were outrageous. :roll:

I checked the estimate sheet again and the code was P0104, low EGR flow. According to the service guy I talked to, the hoses were "bad" although I don't know in what respect. I paid them $95 for their generous assessment and left with my Jeep. I dropped it off at the Goodyear service center where my parents get their GMs serviced and repaired. My dad knows the guy who runs the place really well, and I find him to be honest and knowledgeable, so I thought he could give me a second opinion. If the hoses need to be replaced, he'll do it and give me a fair price. He also knows I like to do some of my own repairs, so if he thinks it's an easy job he'll tell me so I can DIY and save on the labor.

As for the EGR, I think it's time for me to spring for that SEGR.

I'll start with a stupid question ... where do I go to buy one?

BodhiBenz1987 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:11 pm

CATCRD wrote:

The last two in your list are the intercooler hoses. They are taking a shotgun approach in replacing all those things at once, or just trying to make parts margin off of you. The hoses are either bad, or they aren't. You can take them off yourself to inspect them for splits or softening. If you don't have wooshing noises, loss of power, and black smoke when you gun it, then they are probably fine.

It's funny, I did actually have a sizable leak in the turbo inlet hose two+ years ago. I could hear a high-pitching hissing sound whenever the turbo spooled up, so I took it to the dealer (same one) and told them that. An hour later, I get a phone call ... "Ma'am, that's just the sound of your turbo spooling up." Me: "No it isn't. I've had this car two years and I know what the turbo sounds like." The guy got kind of combative and told me if I really insisted, I could come back at the end of the week to have the diesel specialist look at it, but really, it was just a normal sound. So I came back at the end of the week and met the diesel specialist, who opened the hood, told me to rev the engine and immediately says "Yeah, you've got a leak in the turbo inlet hose." He replaced it in minutes, under warranty. :lol:

That diesel specialist was pretty good, from what I can tell ... not sure if he's still there ... if he was the only one I had to deal with, it'd probably be a better experience.

What the? $1,150 for an EGR valve?

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