R-D-Crunch-Stall X2

flman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:22 am

OK, I know I have a tranny problem, when I first back out of the garage in reverse, then I shift to drive and get a crunch, then the engine stalls due to a total lock up. Is this the torque converter or something in the tranny? I have no unusual noises so far.

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:23 am

Sounds like converter failure. What converter is in the vehicle, one of the first OEM converters, Euro JK converter, or other aftermarket? It sounds like a classic failure of the OEM converters from the start of production.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:09 am

It also sounds like what has been happening to me for a while now - The torque converter is draining while parked and you aren't waiting long enough for it to re-fill before driving out of your garage.

Is it real slow to engage in reverse that first time?

liberty2.8 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:56 am

geordi wrote:

It also sounds like what has been happening to me for a while now - The torque converter is draining while parked and you aren't waiting long enough for it to re-fill before driving out of your garage.

Is it real slow to engage in reverse that first time?

I have had this problem too since I changed fluid/filters several months ago. Some have suggested a faulty filter; seems like it was mentioned built-in check valve/flapper in the pancake filter. Haven't wanted to drop pan and go through the filter change again so I just put in gear holding brake for several seconds before proceeding on. If I don't, It'll act real squirrely and sometimes not shift out of 3rd.
geordi, could this be related to the limp mode we've been experiencing lately?

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:48 pm

I strongly doubt it has anything to do with the limp mode. Partially, b/c I believe the power loss and limp-mode-like behavior was due to overfueling. The other reason is that it comes and goes... So does this transmission behavior, BUT the trans seems to vary based on where I park. Once I let it fill itself back up after starting the motor, all is fine... Whether or not it chooses to overfuel and blow clouds of smoke when I try to accelerate. The transmission performance is normal, once it is past 20-30 seconds of operation.

My problems with the transmission draining also started after a fluid change - When the engine and transmission were out during the engine replacement. I don't know if they did something wrong with the transmission, but if I can get a solid clue as to what to poke at (and if I can do it myself without dropping the whole transmission) then I'm willing to do another transmission change to fix this and possibly prevent any damage if it is possible to BE damaged by this. If the trans has to come out however... I'm going back to the original shop (that I've been going to for almost 20 years) and get them to fix this for free. It wasn't doing this before they dropped the trans.

flman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:50 pm

geordi wrote:

It also sounds like what has been happening to me for a while now - The torque converter is draining while parked and you aren't waiting long enough for it to re-fill before driving out of your garage.

Is it real slow to engage in reverse that first time?

It reverses out of the garage fine, it is when I put it into drive, it makes a crunch and locks the engine into a stall, it is not a low fluid thing.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:15 pm

I'm not low on fluid either. Interesting tho, mine does not make any noise that I am conscious of, it just drags the engine into a stall sometimes when I do the R-D shift. My understanding is that it does that b/c the converter isn't properly filled yet after startup, and doesn't allow proper slip to keep the engine running.

I'll admit that transmissions are still somewhat magic to me, I know that they are basically just a big hydraulic system and without proper pressure... You gots no go. But as the natural state is UNLOCKED and loose... I find it interesting that the TC remains locked in reverse when you shift to drive without sufficient fluid into the TC.

Mine takes a few seconds (up to 10) to engage reverse when it wants to behave like this, and 5 seconds later when I shift to drive... Is when it will be a 50/50 shot to stall or just go normally.

Mr Mopar, thoughts from the engineering department?

flman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:50 pm

geordi wrote:

I'm not low on fluid either. Interesting tho, mine does not make any noise that I am conscious of, it just drags the engine into a stall sometimes when I do the R-D shift. My understanding is that it does that b/c the converter isn't properly filled yet after startup, and doesn't allow proper slip to keep the engine running.

I'll admit that transmissions are still somewhat magic to me, I know that they are basically just a big hydraulic system and without proper pressure... You gots no go. But as the natural state is UNLOCKED and loose... I find it interesting that the TC remains locked in reverse when you shift to drive without sufficient fluid into the TC.

Mine takes a few seconds (up to 10) to engage reverse when it wants to behave like this, and 5 seconds later when I shift to drive... Is when it will be a 50/50 shot to stall or just go normally.

Mr Mopar, thoughts from the engineering department?

OK, so this is just a normal cluster fudge? Tell that one to the CRD driving soccer mom. :jester:

flman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:03 pm

MrMopar64 wrote:

Sounds like converter failure. What converter is in the vehicle, one of the first OEM converters, Euro JK converter, or other aftermarket? It sounds like a classic failure of the OEM converters from the start of production.

It has the OEM Converter, I was thinking that myself. My father in law had a Powerstroke years ago that did the same thing, I recall it was the converter?

flman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:04 pm

liberty2.8 wrote:

geordi wrote:

It also sounds like what has been happening to me for a while now - The torque converter is draining while parked and you aren't waiting long enough for it to re-fill before driving out of your garage.

Is it real slow to engage in reverse that first time?

I have had this problem too since I changed fluid/filters several months ago. Some have suggested a faulty filter; seems like it was mentioned built-in check valve/flapper in the pancake filter. Haven't wanted to drop pan and go through the filter change again so I just put in gear holding brake for several seconds before proceeding on. If I don't, It'll act real squirrely and sometimes not shift out of 3rd.
geordi, could this be related to the limp mode we've been experiencing lately?

Do you get the lock up stall as well?

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:00 pm

With the original OEM converters, this was a frequent failure mode. As it was explained to me, what happens is that after shuddering for so long (or bottoming the springs while you don't "feel" the shudder, or from overheating), the stator becomes damaged and effectively jams itself with the turbine. With this, when the transmission is engaged the fluid pressure in the converter causes it to lock-up against the housing and with the vehicle at stand-still when engaging Drive the engine stalls.

This might not be the 100% correct explanation but in a nutshell, the converter is coming apart and is self-engaging into a sort of lock-up. It would be a good idea to plan for a replacement before the converter completely fails and sends parts through the rest of the trans.

flman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:52 pm

MrMopar64 wrote:

With the original OEM converters, this was a frequent failure mode. As it was explained to me, what happens is that after shuddering for so long (or bottoming the springs while you don't "feel" the shudder, or from overheating), the stator becomes damaged and effectively jams itself with the turbine. With this, when the transmission is engaged the fluid pressure in the converter causes it to lock-up against the housing and with the vehicle at stand-still when engaging Drive the engine stalls.

This might not be the 100% correct explanation but in a nutshell, the converter is coming apart and is self-engaging into a sort of lock-up. It would be a good idea to plan for a replacement before the converter completely fails and sends parts through the rest of the trans.

I agree with you Mr. Mopar, time for a Euro TQ and a GDE TCM flash during the tear down :mrgreen:

flman · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:29 am

I ordered the TQ from Westbury Jeep, next is the TCM flash when it gets put in my shop. Famous last words by by me, "I will get the TCM flash when I need to actually change the TQ."

dieselsmoke · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:08 pm

MrMopar64 wrote:

With the original OEM converters, this was a frequent failure mode. As it was explained to me, what happens is that after shuddering for so long (or bottoming the springs while you don't "feel" the shudder, or from overheating), the stator becomes damaged and effectively jams itself with the turbine. With this, when the transmission is engaged the fluid pressure in the converter causes it to lock-up against the housing and with the vehicle at stand-still when engaging Drive the engine stalls.

This might not be the 100% correct explanation but in a nutshell, the converter is coming apart and is self-engaging into a sort of lock-up. It would be a good idea to plan for a replacement before the converter completely fails and sends parts through the rest of the trans.

x2, iv had so many issues with my built trans in my cummins iv pretty much seen it all(you wouldnt think so).
But iv had all kinds of issues like lock up issues,"hunt for shift issues"....then god forbid i put a manual lock up switch....But yea this sounds like it would be the problem, most logical

flman · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:10 pm

dieselsmoke wrote:

x2, iv had so many issues with my built trans in my cummins iv pretty much seen it all(you wouldnt think so).
But iv had all kinds of issues like lock up issues,"hunt for shift issues"....then god forbid i put a manual lock up switch....But yea this sounds like it would be the problem, most logical

I see you have a Cummins as well, have you ever been to http://forum.mopar1973man.com/index.php

dieselsmoke · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:29 pm

flman wrote:

dieselsmoke wrote:

x2, iv had so many issues with my built trans in my cummins iv pretty much seen it all(you wouldnt think so).
But iv had all kinds of issues like lock up issues,"hunt for shift issues"....then god forbid i put a manual lock up switch....But yea this sounds like it would be the problem, most logical

I see you have a Cummins as well, have you ever been to http://forum.mopar1973man.com/index.php

Just checked it out. i had never been there. I go to cumminsforum.com, diesel truck resource.com, and a few others. I dont really look at them anymore b/c Iv pretty much got my truck figured out tech wise. If I have an issue i will visit, or if i need to sell or buy a part.

flman · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:07 pm

darn, now the wife tells me the other Jeep stalled when she put it in reverse today. Now I am gonna have to get double busy. :evil:

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:11 pm

MrMopar64 wrote:

With the original OEM converters, this was a frequent failure mode. As it was explained to me, what happens is that after shuddering for so long (or bottoming the springs while you don't "feel" the shudder, or from overheating), the stator becomes damaged and effectively jams itself with the turbine. With this, when the transmission is engaged the fluid pressure in the converter causes it to lock-up against the housing and with the vehicle at stand-still when engaging Drive the engine stalls.

This might not be the 100% correct explanation but in a nutshell, the converter is coming apart and is self-engaging into a sort of lock-up. It would be a good idea to plan for a replacement before the converter completely fails and sends parts through the rest of the trans.

Are there any other explanations for this however, related to why the TC was draining only intermittently? I do not have the stock TC anymore, and even more than that... I have a NEW TC that I got put in with the engine. I figured it was a good time to replace it, before anything bad had happened and while everything was already in pieces.

It isn't a SunCoast, but came from a shop I trust who said that the TC has nothing plastic in it and should be capable of 500 lbs of torque. Humorously enough - I HAVE felt it shudder just twice since install (quite noticeable!) so I know it isn't doing it on a regular basis... It is just draining while parked. Sometimes it will drain in less than 20 minutes of being stopped, other times it is fine for hours.

The stalling is a fairly rare result however when I shift out of reverse... Possibly b/c I feel the lack of power when the thing drained, and just wait on the brake for it for about 10 seconds before moving.

boilermaker2 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:03 am

Guys I respect your intuition and curious minds. God bless the Boy Scouts for their can-do, can-fix spirit. However, what you guys are explaining on slow lock-up and stall is something I have experienced for a LONG, LONG time :banghead:

.

Under warranty, I took it back three times and they could not, would not, do anything. :seuss:

Here's what I do: backing out of the garage I wait 5 seconds after start, drop into reverse, back it out and around 90 degrees and then sit in neutral for ~10 seconds (if you drop it into P you will hear a loud clatter as the TC/trans duo bangs to life). I then complete my 180 turn drive off in drive. After a hard highway drive, I may just leave it in P until I hear the systems come to life. (You can do this too, you can actually hear your alternator and transmission kick in after a fresh start.)

After I reverse out of my parking space at work, I drop it into drive (it takes off in second or maybe even third) and as I pull up to the road I drop and roll in N, wait (look both ways), drop into D and then pull out. It works for me, I've been doing it for 4+ years now.

I have to laugh, I went through the 7 levels of grief over a stupid driveline issue :ROTFL:

(http://www.recover-from-grief.com/7-sta ... grief.html)

Anyway, I write it off as character. I tried to have it fixed when it was under 30,000; 36,000 and one more time before 70,000.

Yes, the problem is worse in the summer. Yes, it is more easily replicated after you drive it at highway (70+) speeds for a few hours. Yes, it is worse but not obnoxiously more (how more obnoxious could something like this get) now than earlier in its life. And yes, I am now over 115,000 miles.

I may do the GDE upgrade and a few other mods mentioned occaisionally here when I have the time. However, on this one, I'm going to wait until she come through the floor board. Has anyone experienced an actual failure from these symptoms or did we all get freaked out with the re-call many moons ago? I know TC's were ripped to shreds but I'm referring specifically to these symptoms and an associated failure?

Sorry for the setup but it comes down to this: $500 goes a long way on a vacation for the family, new set of tires or house payment. For that, I can just wait 15 seconds before I drop it into drive. I will not, however, let me wife drive the jeep. She would destroy it in one grocery run. :5SHOTS:

I'm not being a chauvenist, she gets it honest from her dad...

Boilermaker2

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:22 am

Boilermaker.

This is just an uneducated quess but could it be the valve in the front pump :?:

As I understand it the valve ball seats on the aluminum casting and quality and consistancy of the casting varies

R-D-Crunch-Stall X2

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