Not Again!

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:15 am

Looks like I've got the same problem all over again - something screwy with the fuel. Going into work today, where I have a long straight stretch, did my usual twice-weekly romp on the throttle to blow out the soot. About the time I got up to 55, engine just dies. Ah crap, not this again!

started it back up and it ran and drove normally rest of the way into work.

coming back tonight, past a certain point, the go pedal didn't do anything, just enough that the beast would gradually get up to highway speed. By the time i pulled onto our road with a mile left to go, it was starting to be an effort for it to even get up to 35 unless aimed downhill.

common thread with last occurrence - 3 or more tanks of regular #2 dino before switching back to B20. Since starting on the trip to Texas, it's done over 3000 miles on regular #2 dino, and a couple of nights ago stopped at the one large truck stop I got B20 at starting out for Texas. In both instances, after running several tanks of #2 dino, then filling up with B20, within 100 miles this beast is out of commission.

I'm beginning to think that it wasn't gasoline the first time around, but like we figured, a clogged fuel filter. I'm thinking that the computer threw the code for contaminated fuel due to the clogged filter, and when the techs saw that on the computer assumed that "contaminated" meant contaminated with gasoline. I've checked back with the station owner where I filled up with B20 on the first go-round with this, and even though he agreed to pay for the bill, said they didn't find any evidence of gasoline contamination in their fuel or have anyone else report any problems.

this time I'm following my instincts, going in the morning and getting a replacement filter, and add a little 911 to be on the safe side, and we'll see what happens.

Looks like I'm either going to have to stick with driving an extra 20 miles every 2 weeks and stick with B20, or stick with the best local brand of #2 dino.

Taz · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:54 am

Could be excess glycerin or water in the B20.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

While its still acting up, maybe a quick check to see if any codes are set, even before the MIL goes on, could be interesting. Even if the on-off-on-off 3 times doesn't work, Autozone will read them for free. I dropped by AutoZone when my EGR went out, immediately on the way home to read mine - I didn't want to wait until I arrived home just in case it cleared before then. If the same code is there as before, at least the symptoms would be consistent.

naturist · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:32 am

I had a similar thing happen to me right after they swapped out the EGR. I dropped it back off at the dealer's, and they found that the air filter was clogged up AND somehow the fuel lines had come very slightly loose, so it was sucking air, but only under strong throttle application. Not sure if the fuel lines worked loose, or if they weren't properly tightened at the factory, or if they were loosened for some reason during the EGR swap and they forgot to retighten 'em.

Probably not the last of those, but if it was either of the other two, might be worth a look on your Libby.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:01 am

Sure sounds like a problem with the B20 cleaning out the fuel system and clogging a filter in the process. The only reason I can think for the filter to clog up so soon is the Jeep must have 5 to 10 micron absolute filter to protect the IP & injectors. The when you switch back to B20 it cleans the fuel system so well as to clog the filter.

My problem with the whole senario is I just would not think 3000 miles would dirty up a fuel system that bad. The reason I say this is having run B2 to B50 most of the time in my VW's while running a Cat 2 micron absolute filter and never had a problem when switching back to B2 or higher fuel. For this reason if you can open the filter water drain and make sure it doesn't have water or some other contaminate in the fuel. Gasoline won't stop at the filter and goes straight on through like diesel as would a lot of other solvents. You may want to take a fuel sample of these fuels and send off for check.

The OM states that the contaminated fuel light warning is only for water and nothing else, it doesn't say it is getting clogged, just that water was detected. I am wondering if maybe the light will come on by pressure and it does not detect water but the back pressure build up as the water blocks fuel flow. Interesting, very interesting. I think it is time to do some fuel sample testing.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:42 am

In both cases, water in fuel light never came on. In the first instance, it was a CEL light that came on after the 6th time it died, when it was to the point I couldn't move it out of the driveway. Techs hooked it up to the computer and it threw P0093 Contaminated Fuel.

It is possible that they mistook glycerin in the fuel for gasoline on the first go round.

I'd be rather surprised if this truck stop has a problem with their fuel. On I-40, high volume full-fledged truck stop, 20 pumps with half of them B20, big green above ground storage tank for B20. Matter of fact, just before I pulled in, someone had bought nearly $200 of B20 from the same pump.

I'll get a sample when I change out the filter. It is possible both stations have the same bio distributor, and that the distributor has changed over to some bad feed stock or made a couple of bad batches. NC Dept of Energy won't be happy, they're helping finance bio in the area.

Well, gotta go get another filter. I've got one of the PermaCool 2 micron fuel filter/water separator kits from JC Whitney I was going to put on another vehicle, looks like it's going on the Jeep ahead of the factory fuel filter.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:02 am

Walt, according to the service manual CD, it's a 3 micron filter they have installed on this beast. do you think it would make that much difference as to how fast it clogs up?

Also, except for the WOT romp, it didn't cut out this time, go pedal just wouldn't make it do anything past a certain point. Possibility that it's one of the electronic gizmos that's gone bad this time.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:40 pm

If the thing has a 3 micron fuel filter on it if you get a load of contaminated fuel it will plug up quicker and keep the IP and injectors from being damaged, most of the damage to the IP & injectors will be done by 5 to 7 micron particles. Cat uses the 2 micron absulote fuel filter but they put a seperate water seperator and 10 micron filter between that 2 micron filter and the fuel tank to avoid sudden stoppages. The regular #2D sold in this country is seldom filtered below 20 micron after it leaves the refinnery. I buy MFA B10 fuel which has a 10 micron nominal filter, most 10 micron nominal filters are only 20 micron absolute, so the fuel you and I buy can have everything from rust, used engine oil, to water passing into you fuel tank. The only way to find out how clean the fuel is from a local staton is to have it tested. I remember one guy bragging about his local station and it's AMOCO Premier diesel that was 50+ cetane and one individual suggested he have it tested to see if the fuel really was what they said it was. Well it came back with such high contamination of trash and water it was suggested by the fuel tester to drain the all fuel from the vehicle(s) and notifing both the station and local state authorities. The fuel was however very high cetane and I seem to remember it being about 54 to 56 range. The fuel test would show if it had bio problem. I would recommend this place for fuel testing (they do a lot of fuel testing) AVlube it just maybe the other stations you buy non bio from are selling trash.

As a filter clog's from trash it is a gradual thing (most of the time) and it will act like you describe, at some point on the the go peddal it just does't want to develope any more power and as it get's worse it may die when hammered suddenly or it could have hard starts. If a lot of water or trash hit the filter at one time it can plug rather suddenly.

It's kind of hard for me to believe the CRD has the ability to tell the difference between water and contaminated fuel. Contaminated with what? How does it tell the difference between diesel fuel and JP5, gasoline or anything else for that matter? I can see a water sensor, but something to detect dirty fuel I doubt. But what the heck this is a new age of computers and fancy sensors I guess it's possible.[url][/url]

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:00 pm

That's my read as well.

Just got back from the dealer, picked up TWO filters this time.

Plan is, remove the old filter, then drain out everything in the filter into a sample jar. In another sample jar, use the priming pump and get a sample of what's in the line from the tank.

Prior to installing a new filter, I'm going to add on the PermaCool fuel filter/water separator kit. It's 2 micron, but the filter only cost $15 each, and it has a nice little drain petcock on the bottom.

When installing the new filter, just in case, I'm going to fill it with 911, and also add some 911 to the tank. Temps were down below freezing last night, so I'm going to play CYA.

Anyone know any place where you could get say 5 or 10 micron add-on fuel filter/water separators?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

"It is possible both stations have the same bio distributor, and that the distributor has changed over to some bad feed stock or made a couple of bad batches. NC Dept of Energy won't be happy, they're helping finance bio in the area. "

If you bought at Homers on Stamey, I think you might be able to rule out the distributor. That truck stop is owned or managed by the same person (Ray Thomas) who owns the BP in Charlotte on Johnston Road. Thats where I stopped by and filled up for the last 3 tanks on my way through Charlotte, mixed with D2 from other stations, with concentrations amounting from B5 to all B20 on the last tank just last week. If he is filling both stations from the same distributor, it should be good. No problems at all on my last tank, in fact has never run better.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

I looked at P0093 codes in general and found this on a Duramax site:

"Diagnostic Trouble Code P0093 (2001) P1093 (2002+): This DTC indicates that the difference between the actual fuel rail pressure and the commanded rail pressure is greater than 20 MPa (2900 PSI). While this could also indicate a "Large Fuel Leak Detected", which is related to excessive fuel return flow (bad fuel injector(s) or loose fuel return fittings), this could also indicate a restricted fuel filter or fuel supply line. This code could occur when more than 5" of vacuum is present at the fuel pressure test port shown below.

I wonder if the CRD's fuel contamination code is based on pressure difference - inferring that fuel contamination caused fuel clogging in the fuel filter, which could produce the difference in fuel pressure described on the Duramax site. Another site mentions low fuel rail pressure will trip this code and lists the same possible causes for low fuel rail pressure.

Taz · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:23 pm

You said that you bought the b20 at a truck stop, For normal dino fuel I would think that would be good, lots of turnover. However for B20 that might be bad, the over the road truckers are staying away from biodiesel because it is being blamed for problems, mostly the theories are that it cleans out the fuel system and clogs up the fuel filters. If the OTR drivers are not buying the stuff it might be going stale.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:37 pm

Sounds more realistic that it is just detecting pressure differences. My bet is still bad fuel.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:06 am

Thinking back, there is one filling station in common with the both occurrences - one particular Shell station at the juction of Hwy 21 and 115 just north of Mooresville. Might be worth stopping back by there just to get a sample.

I agree about Homers, I've used several tanks from them and the Penn Mart in Salisbury without any problems. Don't think the fuel at Homers is going stale either, have seen several big rigs the times I've been there filling up with B20, pump I used the other night had recently had about $200 bought out of it.

Here's the thing that makes me seriously doubt the "gasoline" theory from LN Jeep - in both cases, I drove anywhere from 60 to 80 miles after filling up with B20 prior to having any problems out of the beast. If there was enough gasoline mixed in with the fuel to cause the beast to quit running, I shouldn't have even made it 5 miles down the road before I started having problems.

It's only been after using 3 or more tanks of #2 dino and then switching back to B20 that this has occurred. If it is just crappy #2 dino and a clogged fuel filter, then I'm not going to hit Penn Mart with the repair bill from LN for the first occurrence, it wasn't their fault. It was most likely the one Shell station, which i do have the receipts for, and need to get a sample from them to prove it. It also means the service techs at LN Jeep don't know their butts from a hole in the ground when it comes to servicing a diesel.

One thing I did note today. When I went to LN Jeep and picked up the new filters, the parts guy mentioned that they used to just stock one filter for normal servicing, but that now they stocked 3, because they had sold several of these CRD fuel filters lately! :shock:

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:14 am

Ranger1 wrote:

I looked at P0093 codes in general and found this on a Duramax site:

"Diagnostic Trouble Code P0093 (2001) P1093 (2002+): This DTC indicates that the difference between the actual fuel rail pressure and the commanded rail pressure is greater than 20 MPa (2900 PSI). While this could also indicate a "Large Fuel Leak Detected", which is related to excessive fuel return flow (bad fuel injector(s) or loose fuel return fittings), this could also indicate a restricted fuel filter or fuel supply line. This code could occur when more than 5" of vacuum is present at the fuel pressure test port shown below.

I wonder if the CRD's fuel contamination code is based on pressure difference - inferring that fuel contamination caused fuel clogging in the fuel filter, which could produce the difference in fuel pressure described on the Duramax site. Another site mentions low fuel rail pressure will trip this code and lists the same possible causes for low fuel rail pressure.

After what I've seen, I'd be willing to bet my next paycheck you're exactly right.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:07 am

How well do you think something like this would work for a prefilter?

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2002790/showCustom-0/p-2002790/N-111+10201+600002013/c-10101

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

If the problem turns out to be bad fuel, it could be that LN wasn't able to get all the crud out of your fuel system. IIRC, you mentioned a while back, just before this issue started, something about some really bad fuel you had to run out. It could well be that more contaminants broke loose, aided by the B20, and clogged your fuel filter. It also appears that LN saw the code and picked the most likely contaminant (gasolene) that a diesel owner would be exposed to, rather than analyzing it. If they could show a lab report analysis on your fuel, which I doubt they had time to do, it would help. I doubt there is any dealership that performs that kind of analysis on light duty diesels as a matter of routine practice.

In looking at the FSM, they describe the bleed port on the fuel filter head, as being able to support a vacuum gauge with an adapter, to troubleshoot clogged filters and fuel supply line leaks. They have the normal vacuum/pressure range on the low side of the fuel system. I think it might be worth it long term for me to look into buying one as it would definitively identify a clogged filter.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:40 pm

Here's why I'm thinking it's ANOTHER bad batch, and not leftover from the first occurrence.

After I got it back from LN that same day is when I started on the trip to Texas. They gave me about a 1/4 tank of fuel. I stopped at Homers when I started on my way, and filled up with B20. Ran all the way to Nashville, 360 miles, without any problems, before refilling again. If there had been any crud that they'd missed, you would think filling up right off the bat with B20 again would have made it apparent. 3700 miles when I started to Texas, and 7100 miles on it now. Except for the initial tank from Homers, all of that mileage was on #2 dino.

Thinking back, the first occurrence was after using 1 1/2 tanks from the Shell station I mentioned, and a BP Amoco on the west side of I-77 on Hwy 150. BP Amoco gave really bad MPG, and I assumed that was where the crud came from, haven't used them since.

But on this second occurrence, along with all the other stations I stopped at on my travels, I purchased 7 gallons at that same Shell station in Mooresville. It gave pretty good mileage for #2 dino. But it could be like oldnavy related about his friends's station, really high cetane rating but so full of trash the lab recommended dumping and flushing the tank.

I'm going to get samples from both the Shell and BP Amoco stations to see just what the heck is going on.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Keep us posted on what you find. I'd be interested in knowing if replacing the fuel filter fixes the stalling issue. So far, I'm still assuming its a clogged fuel system...

XJJeepGirl · **Posted:** Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:00 pm

retmil46 wrote:

Looks like I've got the same problem all over again - something screwy with the fuel. Going into work today, where I have a long straight stretch, did my usual twice-weekly romp on the throttle to blow out the soot. About the time I got up to 55, engine just dies. Ah crap, not this again!

started it back up and it ran and drove normally rest of the way into work.

coming back tonight, past a certain point, the go pedal didn't do anything, just enough that the beast would gradually get up to highway speed. By the time i pulled onto our road with a mile left to go, it was starting to be an effort for it to even get up to 35 unless aimed downhill.

Mine did the same thing, drove straight to the dealer and they said the computer had a fuel rail pressure error. They said they found a little air in the fuel lines but couldn't find any malfuncting parts. Hasn't happened since.

Catherine

Not Again!

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