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Blown Turbo
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=53781		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Patrick Henry [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:26 am ]
Post subject:  Blown Turbo
Although this is my first post, I've been lurking here ever since buying my '05 Libby. Best technical knowledge base on the CRD bar none.

My Libby's been pretty trouble free, having done the Provent mod since day one, never had an EGR failure, replaced the restrictive exhaust with a Magnaflow, replaced the TC under warrenty, and disconnected the fuel head heater. Always ran 5W-40 syn oil and never killed the engine w/o letting the turbo have some time to cool down.

Last couple of weeks been noticing the turbine whistle getting louder but didn't give it much thought as my VW TDI does that occasionally. Yesterday the wife picked me up in the Libby and when she accelerated from a stoplight she remarked the Libby was losing power and I looked out the back window to see a good amount of black smoke rolling out the back. Thinking the Jeep had gone into the "limp" mode I had her pull over into a parking lot but by that time white and blue smoke was billowing out the tailpipe. After shutting it down for several minutes I restarted it and it idled OK but tons of white smoke was coming out and streaks of oil started dribbling out the tailpipe, I knew the turbo was gone.

Stuck with a heavy workload schedule I had it towed to the dealership and they confirmed my worst thoughts on the turbo and secondary damage to the intercooler. This is at 86,000 miles.

REALLY disappointed about having to make such an investment on repairs as I was expecting this to be an engine good for 300K miles.

If I decided to keep this thing after getting the repairs done, I'm wondering what can be done to detect impending turbo failure before going catestrophic. Should one be checking play on the turbine rotor occasionally? Is an increase in whistle noise a dead giveaway? Or is this model/brand of turbo just inadequate?

The price for a replacement turbo is cheap compared to what it's costing me to repair all the secondary damage.
Author:  fastRob [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
If you have a warranty, the stock turbo is the way to go.
My turbo is fine but I keep thinking of the Green Diesel turbo set up.
Having just paid $1250 to replace my T/Converter again, due to my fault, the GDE turbo expense is not likely to happen soon.
I think it is rare to have the turbo go.
I always thought any miles over 100,000 miles on a turbo is a gift.
Author:  Joe Romas [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
As for oil in the intercooler some oil is kind of normal thing without some type of breather modification. If a small drain hole were drilled in the bottom of the plastic end to let the oil run out then inserting a self taping screw to reseal it back up. But in your situation I don't think a dealer would do that.
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
Secondary damage to intercooler? Did the compressor wheel break and send parts into the CAC? Turbo failures typically send parts out the exhaust as the turbine side is most likely to go. have you always been running stock air filters?

The turbo kit we offer is about 5 years newer technology than what came on the KJ. It is a much better unit from a durability and functionality standpoint.

What other secondary damage did they report to you? It might be in your benefit to have a second opinion. Did they pressure check the intercooler? Oil in the CAC is not a problem, just pour in some parts cleaner, swish around a bit and drain.

Good Luck
Author:  CATCRD [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
I agree. Secondary damage to the intercooler, other than fouling with oil, is unlikely. They should be able to just remove it and degrease it.
Author:  BlackLibertyCRD [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
Doh'
Author:  mustang_gt_350 [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
Of the 2 turbos i have killed on the PSD both of mine had compressor damage. The first was the one that was on the truck when i bought it, the journal bearing was worn and was allowing the compressor wheel to hit the housing, the 2nd time wasn't as nice It snapped the turbine off and went flying through the exhaust and i found it laying at the 90* elbow under my stack :) That one also chewed up the compressor side. I just washed out the IC and tossed it back together.

The chance of any of the pieces making it with enough velocity/mass to do damage to the IC expecially since the hoses are just that hoses and not alum, or stainless are very slim as i'm sure it would have torn into your IC hosses and been slowed down.

Maybe you should shoe horn a bigger IC in it now :)
Author:  geordi [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
Get your CRD away from that dealer!!!!!

I would bet money that your intercooler is NOT damaged in any way. I lost my turbo without any warning, and lost the engine shortly after that (10 miles after new turbo) so you want to talk damage... I'm the guy. But the IC was NOT hurt at all. That dealer is trying to make up their service department salary off your wallet.

YOU can remove the turbo yourself in the driveway, it isn't that bad of a job and will probably take about 2-3 hours the first time, just because you will be exploring and going slow.
I can dig down and get to my turbo in about 30 minutes now, 1 hour and it is out if I wanted it. You can buy just the turbo from your parts department (who will be VERY likely to charge full retail - find another dealer and as for "shop rate") I got mine from a friend who works at a dealer, but expect them to tell you the price is $1850. Dealer cost was around $850. Right now, Mopar Parts America has the turbo listed for $1264... So that turbo kit from GDE is starting to sound pretty good.

In reality, there isn't much that you would need to do other than turn some wrenches to replace this. It is a VERY simple unit - 2 exhaust ports, 2 air ports, 2 oil ports... 4 nuts that hold it to the engine (one of the exhaust ports) and 3 heat shield bolts. Seriously. I could probably talk you through the entire replacement right now, but it would take all the fun out of it. :SOMBRERO: You don't even need any special tools... Open ended wrenches in a 1/2", 10mm, and the same in sockets with an extension are just about all you need.

Just get your CRD away from the dealer. They will KILL you on their labor rate for this, b/c you are out of warranty. Tow it out yourself if you have to.
Author:  fastRob [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
Welcome to the Forum by the way :BANANA:
Please let us know what you do and why.
Remember, we are all in this together, that is how we learn.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
What part of the world are you in patrick henry?

I also say its very unlikely that your Intercooler is damaged. Throw a new turbo in and go, 3 years ago you could pick up used turbos on ebay for $100-300 bucks, though these days thats probably no longer possible.
Author:  Patrick Henry [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
Well, it wasn't as bad as the service girl relayed to me. I went in and the mechanic gave me the Parts de Tour.

The rotor was still in the turbo housing; it had spun out of the bearing and was laying loose but still in one piece. The secondary damage was confined to simply the oil flung through the exhaust, which filled up the cat and soaked the mesh/batting in the Magnaflow muffler. Nothing wrong with the IC.

I'm having the IC inlet and outlet hoses replaced; both are original and are pretty soft. Air cleaner hose to turbo I recently replaced and it was fine. (BTW engine oil residue on that original air inlet hose made it brittle and it sheared off at the turbo inlet.) New cat and they found me a new Magnaflow for the exhaust. I examined the replacement Garrett turbo and out of curiosity I tried to wiggle the compresser end of the rotor for any play and I could find none, absolutely snug.

Funny thing the mechanic had a Libby in for the same thing ahead of me, except the rotor had left the turbo housing. That gave me the opportunity to show the guy its stock exhaust system laying on the bay floor and the difference I wanted to retain in mine that got rid of that flow restriction between the cat and muffler.

So, no warning clues to turbo failure?

I'm considering checking my replacement turbo every 10K or so for any play to the rotor. I'll definitely heed a change in turbine whine from now on; that is if I keep it.

Without a root cause why these turbos are shelling out doesn't give me much confidence. I really wonder if this particular Garrett turbo isn't up to the cyclic loading of stop & go driving and the associated thrust loads on the bearing. So GDE might be on to something. If I wasn't in such a jam with work I'd certainly be wrenching one of those on.

I'm operating my CRD at 5500 ft elevation, dry air, stock paper air filters.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
Patrick Henry wrote:
'm operating my CRD at 5500 ft elevation, dry air, stock paper air filters.


Sounds like colorado, what part of the world are you in?
Author:  RAF 3829 [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
Let me say this. At work whenever we have a turbo failure, the CAC gets pulled, sent out, flushed & cleaned. The air filter gets changed, and the intake piping between the filter & turbo inlet gets pulled apart & cleaned out. You wouldn't think it, but you'd be surprised how much metal gets blown back towards the filter when a compressor wheel comes apart.
Author:  nursecosmo [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
It sounds like most of the turbo failures to this point have been broken shafts.
Author:  onthehunt [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
Quote:
Let me say this. At work whenever we have a turbo failure, the CAC gets pulled, sent out, flushed & cleaned. The air filter gets changed, and the intake piping between the filter & turbo inlet gets pulled apart & cleaned out. You wouldn't think it, but you'd be surprised how much metal gets blown back towards the filter when a compressor wheel comes apart.


Standard practice here also. You just don't want to take a chance with a new turbo.
Author:  geordi [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
Yea, it does Cosmo... Mine was a shaft, add to that the ones mentioned in this thread, that adds to what, 4 so far then?

Doesn't seem like the altitude was a problem b/c mine was at sea level, but what could be causing this? I certainly don't want to be dealing with ANOTHER snapped shaft if this is a design flaw of some kind. I had thought that *maybe* somehow I had gotten the wrong oil in mine (just grasping at straws for a reason of the failure) and that had caused it... Now I'm not so sure. His failure sounds eerily similar to my own memory, although I can't recall if I heard the turbo noise increase before it blew. But the smoke clouds... Just about.

Actually, thinking about it - Patrick Henry - You said you had clouds of white and BLUE? What oil was in your engine? Was it full synthetic 5w-40? Are you CERTAIN? Synthetic oil doesn't burn like that. When mine blew I was at speed (60mph) and had a nice big cloud of black smoke b/c of the overfueling... Not white.
Author:  TDIwyse [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
Sir Sam wrote:
Throw a new turbo in and go, 3 years ago you could pick up used turbos on ebay for $100-300 bucks, though these days thats probably no longer possible.


I'd recommend the GDE turbo kit if you can swing the $'s. If $ is tight for you I have my old turbo that's just sitting in my garage collecting dust.
Author:  Patrick Henry [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
I'd be reluctant to categorize "broken shafts" as turbo "failures".

It's highly unlikely a rotor shaft would snap by itself without a significant metallurgical flaw present. Or a large external force impacts the blades, like sucking something solid through the intake.

The more likely case is something is happening mechanically in the bearing allowing the rotor to move excessively axially and radially until the oil blows past the seal and/or the blades contact the housing and/or the bearing seizes the rotor after loss of oil. The rotor shaft isn't that highly stressed until things go metal-to-metal and that is more likely when and how the rotor shaft snaps. In my mind the rotor shaft breaking is a consequence of the bearing failure. In other words something is allowing the rotor shaft to "move" to places it shouldn't and that is when SHTF.

My rotor shaft didn't break but it didn't have much restraint left from the bearing.

I've always used Delvac or Mobil 1 5w-40 for Diesels. The mechanic asked me if I wanted the blown turbo for a paperweight. Maybe an exam of the internals would offer a clue what made the bearing go and if it might have anything to do with the oil.
Author:  painemann [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
Patrick Henry wrote:
. Air cleaner hose to turbo I recently replaced and it was fine. (BTW engine oil residue on that original air inlet hose made it brittle and it sheared off at the turbo inlet.)
-- my intake did the same thing, it was a fun part for the dealer to find (they ordered the wrong one twice). Once I got the part it was simple to replace but I think this is something everyone should check for after a few miles. I have the EHM done since the new and I am going to take the intake tube off once in a while to check for oil and cracks. If a piece of that rubber tube comes loose I'm sure it's not going to be great for the turbo!


So, no warning clues to turbo failure?
-- also would like to know of any warning signs, mine is nearing 100,000 miles and I don't want to loose the turbo! (need to get my wallet out for the timing belt still!) Do they sell a rebuild kit for the stock turbo? With the new house I don't think I could swing a GDE kit for sometime.
Author:  geordi [ Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blown Turbo
No rebuild kits that I am aware of, but I still have to take my spare turbo to a local shop and have them check on something for me - The center cartridge seems to want to rotate on the compressor side, which would mean bad things for the VNT servo.

Try to visualize this - The outer body of both snails is held to the discs of the center cartridge with a bunch of bolts around the edge. This allows you to "clock" the snails for best fit in the engine. The vacuum servo bolts to the compressor snail, not the center disc.

Normally, the center discs are fixed in place - how, I'm not sure. Internally somehow. On mine however, the disc on the compressor side moves when you try to rotate the compressor snail in relation to the rest of the turbo. The disc is solidly bolted to the snail, and the turbine shaft has no play, spins freely and smoothly. But with this disc being able to rotate, there is a good chance for damage somehow. So I can't use or sell this until I get it checked out.
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