When are we going to get the Better Bosch Glow Plugs?

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:32 pm

Bosch Part number: 0 250 202 038 and 11 Volts instead of 7 volts
Now being sold in Australia and New Zeland for '02 2.5L - '04 2.8L CRDs, but not here, WTF :banghead:

Update: We have the Rapitherm Glow plugs a newer generation that are to help emissions. From what I found out TDI/PD owners are switching back to the Dureterm to reduce damaging engines.

The beginning of the Dureterm catalog gives a warning about over advanced injection timing can be a cause of short life of glow plugs. Some tunes have a little more advance to get more fuel economy than others and the little extra advance may be why some are having more problems. When I over advanced timing on older IDI VW diesels to get more fuel economy, I trashed glow plugs faster, but since I bought them cheap by the box and they did not damage the engine, I did not care back then. Later I figured out how to curve the VE pump to the engine and got more performance with out trashing glow plugs. On my CRD with a ceramic glow plug that can destroy an engine, trashing a glow plug for a little more MPG is not worth the risk for me. :2cents:

Catalog: http://www.bosch.com.au/content/languag ... _Ready.pdf

When Mopar unloads all their Junk Ceramics and ruins more engines?????

art

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:40 am

If these non ceramic Bosch glow plugs are available and function correctly in our CRD, what is stopping us from installing them in our vehicles?

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:09 am

We have a 7 volt system, it would need to be converted to work with the 11-volt plugs. Why can't they just design and use the 12-volt system as it is... at 12 volts? The plugs I had in my TDI (AFAIK) were a 12-volt design. Going to some weird voltage just seems like over-thinking the system for the fun of it.

dejeepdezel · **Joined:** Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:42 pm **Posts:** 12

Good Luck!I hav an '05 VW TDI that had a recall for glow plugs last year.They replaced the ceramic ones with steel.It took a reprogramming of the ecu due to voltage differences.I believe it went from 7 volt plugs to 5 volt plugs(I think).I do know without the ecu change they said the glow plugs would only last a couple of cycles! :dead:

dirtmover · **Posted:** Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:13 pm

geordi wrote:

Why can't they just design and use the 12-volt system as it is... at 12 volts? The plugs I had in my TDI (AFAIK) were a 12-volt design.

Voltage drop! By choosing a voltage significantly lower that the nominal battery voltage you guarantee you can supply it even when the voltage drops during starting.

Good luck getting Chrysler to put the effort into producing the firmware required to control different plugs. I don't think we'll see another flash update from them unless it is addressing a safety recall.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:45 pm

dirtmover wrote:

geordi wrote:

Why can't they just design and use the 12-volt system as it is... at 12 volts? The plugs I had in my TDI (AFAIK) were a 12-volt design.

Voltage drop! By choosing a voltage significantly lower that the nominal battery voltage you guarantee you can supply it even when the voltage drops during starting.

Good luck getting Chrysler to put the effort into producing the firmware required to control different plugs. I don't think we'll see another flash update from them unless it is addressing a safety recall.

Ok, that reason at least makes sense. As for the firmware updates... I wouldn't trust Chrysler if they told me that the sun was going to come up in the East tomorrow.

If there is anything to be updated here to make this work better for us / upgrade us to better parts, I'm sure that the great folks at GDE will be there working on it for us. They are the ONLY reason that the CRD is a functional vehicle, IMHO.

Turbo Tim · **Posted:** Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:00 pm

Ahhhh grasshopper, one could use an everyday 30 Amp relay, triggered by the original power to the glow plugs to turn on the relay, then one could use the switched output with a power resistor to each glow plug to set it at whatever voltage ones heart desires (under 12 volts of course).

Just change the value of the power resistor to change the voltage on the glow plug.
This is called "Hardware Programming." None of that soft stuff here.
Very easy wiring modification....

FYI, relays don't care about how much PWM is applied to the control coil. They can't react that fast so they just turn on.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:53 pm

Turbo Tim wrote:

Ahhhh grasshopper, one could use an everyday 30 Amp relay, triggered by the original power to the glow plugs to turn on the relay, then one could use the switched output with a power resistor to each glow plug to set it at whatever voltage ones heart desires (under 12 volts of course).

Just change the value of the power resistor to change the voltage on the glow plug.
This is called "Hardware Programming." None of that soft stuff here.
Very easy wiring modification....

FYI, relays don't care about how much PWM is applied to the control coil. They can't react that fast so they just turn on.

Would a Fluke amp-probe be good enough to determine the amperage the glow plugs are drawing so we could pick out the right size power resistors? That is assuming one were to use 5 Volt Glow plugs.
With 11 volt Glow Plugs, how would we trick the Glow Plug Control unit into thinking that the glow plugs are OK? Doesn't it need a load to think everything is OK?

Another issue is that the glow plugs we get need to be the correct size and wattage. There are some 11 volt ones that fit, but 5 volt would be best to get the fast warm up.

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:37 pm

If your idea would ever come to fruition, a pat on the back from all of us with respect and high regards would be your reward.

Turbo Tim · **Posted:** Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:10 pm

I forgot about the glow plug module squealing on you if the resistance is not correct. Rats.
Hmmm, I'll bet that if "We" have the 7 volt version now, a series resistor with each 5 volt version would probably work just fine without throwing a CEL.

One would just have to have a bench power supply and fire each one up at the correct voltage, then you could measure the current and calculate the series resistor.

I believe it could be done easily.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:49 pm

Would each plug need a different resistor value? Too bad that there couldn't be just one "supply" resistor that hit all 4 at the same time.

JL Rockies · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:01 am

You guys are silly with what you worry about.

Squeeto · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:18 am

Turbo Tim wrote:

One would just have to have a bench power supply and fire each one up at the correct voltage, then you could measure the current and calculate the series resistor.

Glow plug resistance may change as it ages though.
Voltage regulator may be better for this. Or software.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:03 am

Resistance goes up as the glow plug heats up. We may need a separate resistor on every glow plug circuit and a separate relay on every glow plug circuit.
The intelligent way to do it would be to have a new Glow Plug Control Module designed to work with Steel Glow Plugs instead of Ceramic Glow Plugs. But that makes too much sense and Bosch does not give a Rat's @$$, they did not do it for the VW TDI PD and went through the FLASH CRAP instead.
Out smart them with a trick box and P!$$ them off.

Squeeto · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:13 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

The intelligent way to do it would be to have a new Glow Plug Control Module designed to work with Steel Glow Plugs instead of Ceramic Glow Plugs.

Modify the existing module to regulate to 5 volts instead of 7. Not too hard to do for the electronically savvy.

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

The new fast metallic glow plugs are actually 4.4 V if the memory is not fading. Not only is a new glow plug relay required, but the calibration and lookup tables inside the Bosch PCM will need to change as well as the open loop duty-cycle is different. The new style of "smart" glow plugs are not plug and play with the KJ.

No need to worry about this until Chrysler actually announces they are creating a new service release for the glow system. When the supply of ceramic plugs runs out and your vehicle pops one, then it will be time to worry and see how Chrysler prices their fix and release timing.

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:57 pm

Since we don't know when Chrysler will make the revisions/update to the new metal glow plugs, does anyone know how often the Ceramic glow plugs should be replaced in order to prevent any possible damage to our engines from glow plug deterioration and breakage. What’s the life of these things?

I'm thinking that a major motor rebuild would cost more than 4 glow plug replacement.

dkenny · **Posted:** Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:01 pm

I think this has been answered before..

What about just disabling the glow plugs? I know in cold areas this is not a solution, but our lows lately have been over 70F... just a question..

back to some more idea about using different ones..
if the controller is looking for a certain resistance from the plugs..just use a resistor..or does the controller measure the current?? this would be harder to bypass.

why don't they just turn off the glow plugs during starting..this would bypass the voltage loss caused by starting.. oh wait that would be too easy..

for voltage dropping resistors think about using light bulbs instead of resistors..easier to get and you know when they're broken. many in parallel what allow a variable amount of current. One would just need to find the right wattage bulb for the proper voltage drop.

-dkenny

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:16 am

racertracer wrote:

Since we don't know when Chrysler will make the revisions/update to the new metal glow plugs, does anyone know how often the Ceramic glow plugs should be replaced in order to prevent any possible damage to our engines from glow plug deterioration and breakage. What’s the life of these things?

I'm thinking that a major motor rebuild would cost more than 4 glow plug replacement.

Based upon the TDI PD Ceramic Glow Plug Fiasco, ceramic glow plugs are frequently broken off and fall into the cylinder when they are changed by Factory Trained Dealer Space Cadet Techs. VW had to pay the labor to R&R the cylinder heads for ceramic glow plugs that broke off during the swap. Last time I checked, VW is in better financial shape than Chrysler who filed Chapter 11. Might be a good idea to check how many notches your head gasket has and order a head set just in case. Besides, Murphy's Law would make the Glow Plugs not break off if you had the Head Set sitting on your Garage Shelf. :lol:

For those who like extreme situations, and since the Glow Plugs go into the cylinder head from the side, you could always tilt your KJ up on the left side so any broken off Ceramic Glow Plugs fall out. :ROTFL:

racertracer · **Posted:** Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:46 am

Well that definitely wouldn't work, you would need an agitator mounted on a 45 degree to shake the jeep while it's up on the lift to remove all the pieces, otherwise its fruitless.

When are we going to get the Better Bosch Glow Plugs?

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