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 Post subject: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:44 pm 
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This one has me beat. Since the temps have regularly been getting into the 80s and 90s my '05 CRD will intermittently refuse to crank when thoroughly warmed up. Twisting the key yields nothing, no crank, no click. So far repeatedly full cycling the key will eventually get results. The hotter the more cycles it takes, over 20 one time. Cycling between on and start does nothing, a full cycle is needed.

While in this condition I have bypassed the micro-relay (in the power distribution center) and it will crank but not fire. When cool bypassing the relay starts it fine. So something has the injectors disabled.

The code scanner showed my perpetual bad #3 glow plug and ORM plus an 0340 Bad Cam Position Sensor Signal. A couple of sources said this will cause the no crank/no fire condition after a shutdown. So I replaced the sensor, cleared the codes and test drove it. No 0340 anymore but the no start returned when I got it really warmed up. The fault condition seems to depend on high underhood temps so I am speculation it is some kind of solid-state screw up.

It might be a bad park/neutral switch but moving the shift lever around doesn't help any. I would like to bypass that switch but I can't find it or any description of its location in the service manual.

If it would just break and stay broke it would be a lot easier to troubleshoot. So any help or clues would be very much appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:43 pm 
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When its a computer issue, my first step is to disconnect the battery overnight.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:15 pm 
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No joy with the battery disconnect.

I did learn that the park/neutral switch is in the Transmission Range Sensor which is internal to the transmission. It does not look like I am going to be able to just jump a couple of wires to disable it. It is starting to look like I will have to take it to a stealership. The local one where I bought it was axed by Chrysler so it will be an hours drive to the next closest. :furious:


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:21 am 
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Starter is going. Heat makes it worse. Classic symptoms.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:36 pm 
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I have the exact same problem, started about a month ago just before a Trip. Tried checking coil on starter and everytime I did I had 12v. The problem went away but this was when the outside temps cooled, once we got back above 95f the problem came back but still very intermittent. I went for the starter and it was ok for a day or so then back to the same thing. Today we are around 101f and if I drive to heat the engine then let it sit ~ 10min it will have problems starting. I ran some errands and when I parked in my driveway I shut it down and made a couple attempts to start and each time it did, I turned the key to the run posistion but did not start then just happen to catch the temp gauge go from a normal run temp (just left of midway) to nothing and it would not start! So then a couple cycles of the key and temp gauge back where it should be and it starts, so it looks to be related to the temp sending unit or the computer. Anyone know where the sending unit is and what it should ohm?? little too hot to go digging under the hood now.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:51 pm 
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Update: The temp gauge is just a symptom, disconnect the sending unit (on thermostat housing) and still starts. Found the manual on this forum and started to go through the troubleshooting procedures but being intermittent the problem disappears after a few procedures. So far I've traced from the ignition switch through the starter relay in the PDC. The next step when it fails and stays solid is to check the TPS (Transmission Position Sensor). I'm very worried it's in the control module, during one failure scenario I had the EVIC tell me to check the TPM ?? and when it started the vehicle promptly went into 'limp' mode!! With all the talk on this forum about difficulty in getting some parts I think it may be time to cut my losses and run. The CRD has been a great vehicle but I have lost confidence in it being reliable and just don't have the time or desire to go through the hassles required to maintain it, the price you pay for getting a 'one-off' vehicle.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:48 am 
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Nope, not the starter. I can jump the microrelay in the power center and the starter spins the engine just fine. It still won't start though because *something* is telling the ECM (probably) to not allow the injectors to open.

I took the CRD down to the rifle range yesterday and thankfully I used up all my ammo before attempting to start it. It took 10 minutes and about 50 cycles of the key before it started. The temptation to empty a clip from my M1 into the engine would have been too great. :evil:

Still no codes showing on my scanner (Innova 3030), other than the usually glowplug and MAF unplugged.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:17 pm 
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The CRD has been at the stealership a couple days now and so far they have no clue as to what is wrong. This, of course, is no surprise.

In reading about the Transmission Range Sensor I see where it locks out the starter relay by interrupting the ground when the shift selector is not in park or neutral. It does not say if that also signals the ECU to shut off the injectors.

Smorgan, I sympathize with your concerns about the CRD's reliability. At some point a vehicle can cross over from being an asset to being a liability. I think mine has done that and although I like my CRD a lot, I am not interested in :banghead: . The CRD was a really great concept, it just failed in the execution, at least for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:15 am 
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The service manager called late yesterday to report no progress. The tech thinks it has something to do with the bad glow plug. Fer cryin' out loud, dude, read the manual. There is a no crank diagnostic procedure in the manual, maybe you should try that. I would if I had the equipment. This is looking as bad as I expected.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:48 am 
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Is it REALLY getting fuel to the cylinders? You should have quite the smoke bomb when it actually fires when you look in the RV mirror.

Instead of jumping to the electric parts, I like to look towards cheaper and easier first. :5SHOTS:
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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:11 pm 
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In the fault condition there is no fuel going to the cylinders. When it finally decides to start there is no smoke.

The dealer has now decided to replace the ECM. Hey, that's as good of a guess as any at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:14 pm 
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Hey all:
Add me to the frustrating list of folks that have had/still have the issue described herein.
It started in May of this year on a hot day with a load to the dump. It wouldn't start, maybe I shouldn't had shut it off while unloading, but was there for a good 10 minutes, so shut it off. Suffice to say it wouldn't start. Thinking nothing of it, along comes mid June and again, no-start hot! July a few times, August a bunch. And I'm not even with the patience at this point for September!
Fuses, relays, etc. I've checked. Did ALL of the fluids. New battery 2 weeks ago. Use only the best Diesel fill-up in town.

I'm going to replace the glow plugs next. Ouch! If that doesn't do it, I'm selling it!

I'll let you know what transpires.

Aaron in CO

P.S. The dealer said they couldn't find the problem, yet addressed the blower motor recall, which is so low on my priority list, but didn't run me any $$ so whatever. They lied when they checked the fuses/etc. The cover was just as dirty going in as when I got it back! Does DCX even have a tech anywhere in the USA for the 05/06Liberty CRD specifically???


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:39 pm 
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suzydieselnut wrote:
Does DCX even have a tech anywhere in the USA for the 05/06Liberty CRD specifically???


No.

the tech's working in 05 when they started got to see a video on the Diesel
(I think it included all of the 05 updates so not even the full hour)

if you find a dealership that services Cummins/Sprinters - at least they have a clue, and odds are they'll have to fight with 'STAR' to fix it.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:23 pm 
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The stealership replaced the ECM but then could not get it started. After a couple days of screwing around with it they figured out they had to program the ECM. :roll: Kept it a couple more days to test it and then called to say it was ready to go, all covered by the 7/70 warranty.

Apparently the warranty does NOT cover cleaning up the greasy hand and foot prints or putting any fuel in it. I left it with a 1/4 tank and got it back with about a quart, never before been able to put that much fuel in it.

Once I hit the highway on the way home I discovered the cruise control would not come on, so back it went. A couple days later and they had that all figured out, something about programing the ECM. :banghead:

So after only a bit over three weeks it is back home and seems to be fixed. When the weather cools a bit I will replace the bad glow plug and try to find some way to keep the check engine light off long enough to sell it. Good luck with that, eh?


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:18 pm 
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Wow. . . this is a familiar story. I guess I'm about to go through much the same BS.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:48 am 
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Alas this is a pain in the .... I just got a call. My so called extended warranty doesn't cover the computer or the work the tech is going to perform to it in so far as the 'update'. Fidelity extended warranties are a joke, at best. The other two dealers I went to completely lied to me about the updates of the codes. At least the one I'm at now is getting somewhere. I'm a few payments away from payoff. They said I might have air in the fuel problems due to the current fuel filter setup, and also need to have a $300.oo+ programing of the computer before the next step. I'm not about to spend another dime on it. I'll just drive my old Isuzu, besides I can work on that!

I'm not doing it.

Look for my CRD on my local Craigslist in the upcoming weeks/months.

Aaron, CO


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:06 pm 
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Location: Green Cove Springs FL
For those of you that are having this problem...

Is your CRD an '05 or '06?

Does the problem seem to be temperature related?

Is the problem no crank?
Or
Is the problem cranks-but-wont-start?

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:31 pm 
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Very much so.
At least in my case.
It is a no crank at all not even clikity-click. Then I cycle the switch try it again. No luck. The temperature gauge doesn't move at all, which is a bit strange considering my infrared temperature unit reads an engine temp of 166-172F. depending on location I place it on my block. As a point of reference my temp with the same device is 95F at my neck.
Mine has a build date of 11/23/05, thus making it an '06.
When it does crank, the temperature gauge comes up and it is sometimes after 5 minutes or as much as 6.5 hours, and the outside temp is always about 75 or higher when it acts like this. Running the A/C or not, doesn't matter. Towing or not, doesn't matter. Turbo cool down or not, doesn't matter. Only did that once and it started anyway, that was a 92 degree day.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:55 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:43 am
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Location: Green Cove Springs FL
I think it might be the ignition switch on the steering column or in the wiring that leads away
from that switch.

If the starter works fine when bypassed, then the problem must be on the other side of that
micro relay.
Because it is an intermittent problem where sometimes the gauges work/dont work or sometimes
starts/wont start, the problem must be related to the ignition key switch.

Maybe the switch itself is bad or there is a corroded or loose connector somewhere in that
circuit. Being loose or corroded adds resistance to that circuit. Add heat on top of that and
enough resistance is added to where the circuit wont function.

Do any of you with this problem have aftermarket alarm systems?
I've seen poor wiring and bad connections in aftermarket alarm systems cause vehicle not to start.

Another part to consider is the factory installed security/immobilizer feature.
If there is a problem with your programmed key FOB, or with the key reader, (there should be
a ring around the key switch that detects you key) your vehicle will crank but wont start.
However, when the ECU detects a problem with this function a RED dot is displayed on the
instrument cluster.

Keep an eye out for this RED dot. It should briefly come on when you turn the key ON.
Wait for it to go out, and then try to start.
If it never comes on, or always stays on, this could indicate a problem and may even be
related to a bad key switch.

Without knowing what diagnostic work has already been done, its difficult to determine
where to look next.

I hope this helps.

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Love it, Love it, Love it


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent no crank/start
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:12 pm 
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'05, definitely ambient temperature related, no crank.

The ECM replacement has fixed it. I believe high underhood temps caused some circuit in the ECM to fail, not unusual for solid state devices. On a hot, sunny day in a blacktop parking lot with a fully warmed engine I expect the engine compartment temps go way up with no air moving through. Given a little time to soak up that heat the ECM had a binary heat stroke. I should have tried pouring cold water on it.


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