Need Divine Intervention!

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:07 pm

My wife was commuting home from work today and was on the Causway(24mile bridge)and said the jeep lost power fairly close to one of the crossovers,so she pulled over.
The samco hose has blown off of the turbo twice allready on us,so she thought it was that.
She looked under the hood,and said the hose was on good.
Had her tow it home.
When I got off of work I looked under the hood and saw that the hoses were ok.
I decided to prime the fuel.
Did that then had the wife start it up.

Immediately I had her kill it.Sounded BAD.
Awefull loud knocking.
Plugged in the scanner and got a PO299,turbo underboost,or something like that.

The knocking was deep and loud,and I'm affraid to try again.

HELP!please.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:12 pm

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54213

In that post, GDE says it could be an EGR issue if it's not the hoses.

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:30 pm

Forgot to mention,It didn't start up,it just knocked some awefull while turning over.
Serious clunking. :grim:

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:35 pm

This question may sound dumb, but when was the last fill up and was it diesel fuel that went into the tank?

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:06 pm

Wife filled it up on friday,been driving it ever since.
Just checked dipstick.Was halfway between low and the bottom of the dipstick.

Not sounding good.

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:24 pm

It may be air in the fuel rail?

Check for loose fuel hose deriving from the fuel filter head or the fuel filter head has a leak.

Has the fuel filter head been upgraded to the new revised head?

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:44 pm

racertracer wrote:

It may be air in the fuel rail?

Check for loose fuel hose deriving from the fuel filter head or the fuel filter head has a leak.

Has the fuel filter head been upgraded to the new revised head?

I have original fuel filter head.Was not aware of new revised head.
I noticed a lil fuel at the bottom of the filter,but don't know if it was from me priming.

Would lack of fuel cause violently loud knocking while turning over?

Checked tailpipe for wet oil,and seemed to be sooty,and not wet.
Towtruck driver told wife it was smoking when he tried to start it to put it on flatbed.
I asked if she noticed smoke when this happened,but she didn't look.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:35 pm

KJ 119 wrote:

racertracer wrote:

It may be air in the fuel rail?

Check for loose fuel hose deriving from the fuel filter head or the fuel filter head has a leak.

Has the fuel filter head been upgraded to the new revised head?

I have original fuel filter head.Was not aware of new revised head.
I noticed a lil fuel at the bottom of the filter,but don't know if it was from me priming.

Would lack of fuel cause violently loud knocking while turning over?

Checked tailpipe for wet oil,and seemed to be sooty,and not wet.
Towtruck driver told wife it was smoking when he tried to start it to put it on flatbed.
I asked if she noticed smoke when this happened,but she didn't look.

This is one BIG reason why I hate tow truck drivers and won't use them unless I am FORCED to. He may have done further damage to your engine by being LAZY and not jjust using his truck to drag the Jeep onto the bed, or his own muscles to turn the dang wheel.

You should not be hearing ANY noises while trying to crank the engine. The oil level may or may not be correct, HOWEVER... (and you aren't gonna like this) I believe you may have a similar problem to what killed my engine - A piston or sleeve has come apart and that is the noise you are hearing. In my case, it happened while the engine was turning, so it destroyed itself in short order. You MAY have gotten lucky if the damage is contained to a single cylinder and your wife cut the engine off before it really hurt something. Smoking is a sign of either burning oil or overfueling... With an engine not running (but did recently) I'm inclined to think that the tow jerk saw the burning oil from inside the already-hot exhaust getting pushed out by the airflow, rather than freshly-burnt from the cylinders.

The power loss may have been the turbo failing, and if you are VERY VERY VERY lucky, then the noise you are hearing is ONLY the turbo's broken compressor wheel rattling in the housing while you are trying to start the engine. That is the easiest thing to check - Pull the radiator reservoir out of the way and remove the heat shield on the turbo, you can then remove the turbo's exhaust outlet. Feel inside there to the compressor wheel... Is it solid in the center or not? Feel from the front intake side, does the shaft spin freely or not?

If the turbo seems OK... Then you need to pull the head and have a look. Don't try to start it again until you know more. Noise = BAD.

toyota jeep man · **Joined:** Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:19 pm **Posts:** 110

not what i like to here!!!!! i hope u get it fixed for ecs!!!!

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:10 pm

geordi wrote:

KJ 119 wrote:

racertracer wrote:

It may be air in the fuel rail?

Check for loose fuel hose deriving from the fuel filter head or the fuel filter head has a leak.

Has the fuel filter head been upgraded to the new revised head?

I have original fuel filter head.Was not aware of new revised head.
I noticed a lil fuel at the bottom of the filter,but don't know if it was from me priming.

Would lack of fuel cause violently loud knocking while turning over?

Checked tailpipe for wet oil,and seemed to be sooty,and not wet.
Towtruck driver told wife it was smoking when he tried to start it to put it on flatbed.
I asked if she noticed smoke when this happened,but she didn't look.

This is one BIG reason why I hate tow truck drivers and won't use them unless I am FORCED to. He may have done further damage to your engine by being LAZY and not jjust using his truck to drag the Jeep onto the bed, or his own muscles to turn the dang wheel.

You should not be hearing ANY noises while trying to crank the engine. The oil level may or may not be correct, HOWEVER... (and you aren't gonna like this) I believe you may have a similar problem to what killed my engine - A piston or sleeve has come apart and that is the noise you are hearing. In my case, it happened while the engine was turning, so it destroyed itself in short order. You MAY have gotten lucky if the damage is contained to a single cylinder and your wife cut the engine off before it really hurt something. Smoking is a sign of either burning oil or overfueling... With an engine not running (but did recently) I'm inclined to think that the tow jerk saw the burning oil from inside the already-hot exhaust getting pushed out by the airflow, rather than freshly-burnt from the cylinders.

The power loss may have been the turbo failing, and if you are VERY VERY VERY lucky, then the noise you are hearing is ONLY the turbo's broken compressor wheel rattling in the housing while you are trying to start the engine. That is the easiest thing to check - Pull the radiator reservoir out of the way and remove the heat shield on the turbo, you can then remove the turbo's exhaust outlet. Feel inside there to the compressor wheel... Is it solid in the center or not? Feel from the front intake side, does the shaft spin freely or not?

If the turbo seems OK... Then you need to pull the head and have a look. Don't try to start it again until you know more. Noise = BAD.

I took off of work tomorrow to have a go at it.I'll let you know what I find.
Thanks guys.

Geordi,any pics or link that might be of some help.Is outlet the top?(sorry)

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:49 am

If you need some tech support tomorrow while you are pulling it apart, shoot me a PM and I will send you my cell number.

The compressor (clean air) inlet is on the side, facing the front of the engine. The turbine (dirty exhaust) outlet is on the exact opposite, facing the firewall. You will want access to both, just to feel the motion (or lack of) in the center shaft.

If you want to try and do a 5-minute diagnosis on the turbo... Pulling out the intake tube from the airbox to the turbo will get you fast access to the compressor inlet, and you can stick your fingers in there and see if it wants to rotate. If not, or if it feels ANYTHING other than smooth rotation without being loose... Turbo is dead.

In all likelihood, you will find the center shaft either wildly loose or frozen solid. This would be the best outcome, if that is the ONLY thing that is wrong with the engine. Removal of the turbo isn't too terrible of a job. It falls squarely in the "pain in the arse" column, but not a high skill job.

If (when) you pull the turbo, you can give a quick crank-over on the engine (without starting it) just to give a listen without the noisemaker of the turbo in there and see if there is still the other noise you reported on. The only reason I suggest trying to crank it at all is that I don't believe that the starter has enough power to cause the engine to break anything internally (like a piston sleeve) and pulling the head without a good reason is a MONSTER pain in the arse.

If there IS any noise however... The head will have to come off and you need to have a look into the beast. I'm hoping for you that this won't be the case.

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:44 am

hope the timing belt didn't go.

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:36 am

geordi wrote:

If you need some tech support tomorrow while you are pulling it apart, shoot me a PM and I will send you my cell number.

The compressor (clean air) inlet is on the side, facing the front of the engine. The turbine (dirty exhaust) outlet is on the exact opposite, facing the firewall. You will want access to both, just to feel the motion (or lack of) in the center shaft.

If you want to try and do a 5-minute diagnosis on the turbo... Pulling out the intake tube from the airbox to the turbo will get you fast access to the compressor inlet, and you can stick your fingers in there and see if it wants to rotate. If not, or if it feels ANYTHING other than smooth rotation without being loose... Turbo is dead.

In all likelihood, you will find the center shaft either wildly loose or frozen solid. This would be the best outcome, if that is the ONLY thing that is wrong with the engine. Removal of the turbo isn't too terrible of a job. It falls squarely in the "pain in the arse" column, but not a high skill job.

If (when) you pull the turbo, you can give a quick crank-over on the engine (without starting it) just to give a listen without the noisemaker of the turbo in there and see if there is still the other noise you reported on. The only reason I suggest trying to crank it at all is that I don't believe that the starter has enough power to cause the engine to break anything internally (like a piston sleeve) and pulling the head without a good reason is a MONSTER pain in the arse.

If there IS any noise however... The head will have to come off and you need to have a look into the beast. I'm hoping for you that this won't be the case.

I did the 5 minute diagnosis and there is a small propeller/impeller right in the front and it spins easily.
Do I need to take it off and feel behind it,or should I precede with the other instructions and remove the exhaust outlet and check there?

Thanks

tonycrd · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:50 am

kapalczynski wrote:

hope the timing belt didn't go.

That's what I was thinking. Loud noises when only cranking on the starter? Scary...

Bub, turn the engine over by hand first before you do anything else.

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:30 pm

I cracked the flange between the cat and exhaust as LW suggested and it was soot and not wet.

Oh Boy!

Geordi,expect a phone call.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:31 pm

KJ 119 wrote:

I did the 5 minute diagnosis and there is a small propeller/impeller right in the front and it spins easily.
Do I need to take it off and feel behind it,or should I precede with the other instructions and remove the exhaust outlet and check there?

Thanks

Well, that is good and bad. The good news is that you found the turbo's inlet, and it seems from this side, that the turbo is still intact.

That is also the bad news - That it seems that the turbo is still intact. I know that normally wouldn't seem like bad news, but in this case it means that the probability for something much more expensive being broken just went way up. oog.

Tony and Kap: I'm with you on the possibility of the timing belt right now, but I was still thinking turbo was making that noise because that is what mine did when the turbo snapped. The airflow through the exhaust is considerable, even during cranking. On mine, the completely-separated turbine spinner was rattling VERY loudly inside the turbo, just from the exhaust flow. Unfortunately in my case, the center shaft (and compressor wheel) of the turbo were frozen solid, so diagnosis of that was easy.

KJ 119: Do you have a copy of the service manual PDF? My next thought would be to see about pulling the timing belt's front cover. This (according to GDE) is a several-hour job, and hopefully you have a manual to read through it and decide if you can do this. You have to pull the cover in order to pull the head off anyway, so this is not wasted energy.

Here is the bad news tho - If your timing belt did break, or something like the tensioner failed which also caused the timing to skip... You will need to pull the head and replace every single rocker arm. This is an "interference" motor design, so as soon as the timing jumps, the pistons slam into the valves. The valves may be OK, but they WILL have snapped every single arm above them. This is the designed failure point to protect other things. This also happened to my engine, when the goober working on installing my new engine managed to screw up the engine's front cover and the tensioner pulled out on their test drive.

Each rocker arm is $60 and there are 16 of them. The good news (yes there is some good news) is that I have a complete head with all the valves and rockers intact. It is from my original engine, has 60k on it, and is in mint condition. The jerk at the shop didn't want to use that on my new engine. He instead decided to piss away more of my money from his mistake, so now I have this spare. Hopefully it will benefit someone here, maybe that is you.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:12 pm

Oh man oh man.

Since it apparently is not the turbo, I'm racking my brain for things this could be, but none of them are good. Here are mine, in order of price/ hassle from least to greatest:

Broken FCV or another post-turbo intake part has been sucked into the intake and is clunking every time the engine sucks air when you try to turn it over.

The bolts holding the torque converter to the flywheel (or another component in that area) have broken and there is a broken torque converter now coupled to your flywheel and not freeing up, causing the clunking (which would seem to be coming from the engine) and preventing it from turning over.

Bad injector or fuel pump, though the only clunking would be from pre-detonated fuel?

Busted head gasket or head bolt, but a telltale sign for that would be coolant in the oil.

Broken timing belt. (But wouldn't it crank without clunking, just not start?)

Broken connecting rod, where the piston froze in the cylinder due to oil starvation, and the rod snapped but did not seperate from the crankshaft. (That is the worst I can imagine.)

:banghead:

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:38 pm

I had a P0299 turbo overboost some time ago and it was bad fuel. A mixture of water and air in the fuel lines. The engine made a heck of a noise that I thought It was about to explode.

Spoke to a diesel tech and he told me that it sounded like I had air in the lines. The reason why the engine knocked so much was becasue I filled the cylinders with a whole lot of unburnt fuel when it wouldn't start.

He told me to bleed the lines and it would eventually start, use a amall amount of either to get it going.

Have you tried calling Diana Dupre at VM motori North America, she has a qualified tech there that may be able to help diagnose the problem....

VM North America

VM North America established in 2004 to support US customers on site.

Facilities: Offices, Pilot Shop, Warehouse
Activities: New business development, Engine packaging interface, Engine/vehicle calibration
Hot/cold trip, vehicle durability support, Vehicle plant support, Prototype vehicle modifications/update, Domestic sales.

Administration

Location: 1067, Centre Drive Auburn Hills Detroit, Michigan 48326

Contact: Diana Dupuie eMail:ddupuie@vm-na.com Phone: +1 248.6482460

Good Luck

:POPCORN:

linewarbr · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:48 pm

Man that's a thought for sure. I remember your saga with that. It's a possibility, especially if the tank was, say, half-full when she filled up, it could be bad fuel.

Just grasping at anything other than a major catastrophic failure. Let me see if I can find that thread you posted, racer.

Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=51023

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:01 pm

That would sound plausible... Except that it initially lost power at 70mph. Would the air-in-fuel problem happen at speed and then result in noises like what you experienced Racer? I don't remember reading about your event.

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