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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:27 pm 
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KJ 119 wrote:
Hey guys,glad to see this thread resurrected.I'm done playing with the boys and I'm back on it.
Came in to see what the torque is for the crows feet.Justed finished plumbing the pressure guage to Keith's compression tool.
Just put it in #1 and about to torque and test.



Two things:

1) The compression tool sits too close to the retention bolt and forces the socket to slip off of the bolt and semi-strip the bolt head,once the flair of the bolt head is tightened low enough to slide in the crowsfoot groove of the injection tool.
:dizzy: if that made any sense.
2) The part of the guage that should hold the pressure(until button is depressed),dosn't appear to be working.It is bursting up to 300 psi while stroking.
Does this sound right?,because I'm not sure if that piece not holding pressure is giving a false reading.






2.25) :banghead: Fuel everywhere!

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:40 pm 
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300psi (20bar) of cranking compression sounds right. Have you checked only cyl 1, or all 4?

To eliminate the fuel spraying while cranking with the injector line unplugged, disconnect the fuel supply line from the filter to the pump so that it can't suck fuel and if you have a lift pump pull the fuse. That little bit of air won't cause an issue while cranking.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:17 pm 
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The tool was stuck in there b/c of the tool flairing wider than actual injector.
Just got back from getting crows foot wrenches,and that didn't work.
I ended up beating a 1/8 drive deep socket onto the bolt to get it out.
I am going to try and find some sort of spacer to try on the bolt before getting into the same thing on #2.
Lunch and I'll update after #2.

MrMopar64 wrote:
300psi (20bar) of cranking compression sounds right. Have you checked only cyl 1, or all 4?

To eliminate the fuel spraying while cranking with the injector line unplugged, disconnect the fuel supply line from the filter to the pump so that it can't suck fuel and if you have a lift pump pull the fuse. That little bit of air won't cause an issue while cranking.


Hey thanks for the tip MrMopar. 8)

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Last edited by KJ 119 on Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:19 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Hey Lee, I'm glad you posted that thread!

I'm just getting started again with the thought process of putting a 4BT into my 97 Grand Cherokee... Any thoughts on what the final performance might be? I've got a lot of learning to do about those engines tho... I know nothing about them currently. Sounds like you have been over and through that engine more than a few times with your situation tho, thanks for documenting in that thread - lots of good reading there.

It's not cheap, but it's a heck of a lot better than the liberty! I should get 20-25 mpg if I can get it worked out right


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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:48 pm 
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:furious: Bout ready to send the tool back to Keith with a whole darn'ed engine attatched to it!

darn tool's stuck in there and I can't get it out.The tip of the tool is smaller than tool to fit in groove about 1/8" deep so you don't need a copper washer.Well that littlle bit is so jammed in there I tried for 20 minutes to get it out.I used the 13mm crowsfoot wrench and put it on the groove of the tool and twisted it back and forth(1/8") while pulling up and no go.Even tried some medieval fulcrum device and no go.I've tried everything short of putting a chanel lock on it and scratching the pretty new tool up.One more go before that happens. :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:38 pm 
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Did you manage to get it out? Without damage to the tool or the engine?

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:12 pm 
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Try hooking a slide hammer to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:10 pm 
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linewarbr wrote:
Did you manage to get it out? Without damage to the tool or the engine?

Block is fine,and tool is fine.It took a lil scuffing,but at least it doesn't still look virgin.

Bill(Bill97redtj),and Timmy came by after work to help get it out.It took three guys,three pieces of 1" rigid pipe,some nifty plumbing fittings and my patented crowsfoot prybar to get it out. :shock:

There are two R&D flaws to the VM tool,but I can work with it.Cylinder#2 will get a cunthair of neverseize on the tool and will not be torqued to anything more than snug.

I'm gonna whip up some grill cheese for the girls and then I'm going to do like Mr.Mopar said, then go for #2.If it jams in #2,then #3 and 4 won't get tested for there's no way it will come out the way it did on #1,back there.

Here's some pics I took with my wife's phone:

Injector
Image

Crowsfoot (and no Raff,I didn't start drinking till an hour after I got off the phone with you :lol: )
Image

Patented Crowsfoot prybar
Image
Image
Image

Action shot
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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:06 pm 
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Bub,

Could the tool be missing parts? Like the part that removes it from the engine?

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:30 pm 
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racertracer wrote:
Bub,

Could the tool be missing parts? Like the part that removes it from the engine?


:furious: Raff you better be joking,or I'm gonna' reach all the way out to Oxford and smack you like a probie on NCIS!
Seriously though,the tool is a VM1072-A.
You telling me there's a VM1072-B Extractor Tool? :banghead:

Here are the results:
Cylinder #1-Bounced 0 to 300 to 0 to 300 to 0..........
Cylinder #2-Bounced 0 to 300 to 0 to 240 to 0 to 300 to 0 to 240..........

Talk to me boys.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:57 pm 
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240 on the exhaust stroke, I presume. Wonder why the variation? Exhaust valve(s) not opening on the exhaust stroke on cylinder 1? That is most definitely where the noise is coming from. Maybe the knocking is the trapped combustion gasses coming through the intake when the valves open on the intake stroke on cylinder 1?

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:07 pm 
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KJ 119 wrote:
Ok Tony,here are the results of the Advanced Cutout Test :
Engine idled at about 750 throughout the entire test.

Injector 1 - Unplugging caused engine to run rough(jumpy) with noise staying the same.
Plugging back in caused engine to run the way it is.

Injector 2 - Unplugging bogged the idle down a bit for about a second or two then continued to run at 750 with Bang sound quieter.
Plugging back in caused a strain on motor(like an big a/c compressor kicking in),with noise back the way it was and idle staying 750.

Injectors 3&4 -Unplugging bogged the idle down a bit for about a second or two then continued to run like I hadn't unplugged it.
Plugging back in reved up idle a bit for about a second or two,then back to 750 and running same.

Coolant level looks fine.
Oil was about a quart low at the time.(showed up half way between low and bottom of dipstick).Checked oil for contaminants and none showed up.



Bump for reference.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:42 pm 
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Sorry man but its time to pull the valve cover and maybe the head.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:56 pm 
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Due to a fabulously bad design, the valve cover IS the head - the upper intake is part of the valve cover, and it all has to come out together.

But my read on the compression test is that you have a burned valve or valve seat. Why, I don't know. But the compression should be consistent, not varying, each cylinder should be within 10% of the others. Yours fails on both those accounts. The ONLY time in the cycle that the system generates pressure is the compression stroke. The intake or exhaust strokes, valves are open - No compression at all. The power stroke - You aren't making any when testing, but the piston is moving the other direction.

The gas engine I had that burned a valve was doing similar things. On that one however, we had the ability to lift off the valve covers and pressurize the intake itself with shop air. Went down the engine tapping each valve rod with a mallet. Bang, bang, bang, bang, TOONK, bang, bang, bang. Hmm. Something wrong there! Pulled the head, and found a crack that you could almost fit the edge of a dime into.

We had to have the head milled to fix the damage, I don't know if that is an option for you... I still have that full head with all the rockers and valves.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:03 pm 
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Ugh.

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Provent, V6 Airbox, Fumoto, Samcos, GDE ECO & TCM Tune, Euro JK TC, Magnaflow Catback
245/70/16 Destination A/T's
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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:35 pm 
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You would be driving it by now if you would have just pulled the head to begin with...

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:22 pm 
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onthehunt wrote:
You would be driving it by now if you would have just pulled the head to begin with...


That opinion is by no means assured.

I had a similar situation with my VW TDI that was fully documented on Fred's TDI Club site. Look for the "Tale of pain" by me, same username. It should be a very long thread, IIRC it was about a 15 page mess like this one.

Hard to start, but once running, ran perfectly. LOTS of people chimed in with a diagnosis, and I had all their knowledge PLUS my own, PLUS two different diesel mechanics looking at the car. One of the two was a "professional" European diesel tech with his own shop. After about a week at his place, he threw up his hands and had no clue what was wrong.
The second mechanic was a guy from the forum who lived in my area, and together we bashed our heads around every possible solution, slowly eliminating each one. The problem was - On the forum, some people had instantly said "It is the injection pump" from the beginning, while others, myself and this tech2 included, said that is unlikely - Because it runs PERFECTLY once running.
After eliminating everything else without a solid symptom appearing (Even a compression test), we finally pulled the pump and brought it to a Bosch shop. They found that a tiny seal inside the pump had failed - Unusual, they said, except for a VE that had switched from LSD to ULSD like mine had, with lots of miles on LSD.

The people who said initially "It is the pump" claimed they were always right, sanctimoniously. Maybe they were. But at the beginning, it could have been a bunch of things, ALL more likely than this tiny failed seal.

The point is for Bub, there have been a LOT of plausible answers to his problem, that all needed to be explored b/c they were easier to solve (maybe) than the unlikely event of a cracked valve seat. I'm STILL not certain that a valve seat is the answer... But everything else has been carefully eliminated. And like Sherlock Holmes suggested:

When all else has been eliminated, whatever remains, however unlikely, MUST be the solution. People can surmise that pulling the head weeks ago might have found this problem faster. Sure... But what if it actually had been a cracked injector tip and the head was pulled anyway? Diagnosis has to follow the evidence from easiest / most likely to hardest / most expensive.

When you hear hoofbeats, do you think Zebras or Horses?

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:39 pm 
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Good one.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:08 pm 
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geordi wrote:
I still have that full head with all the rockers and valves.

Hey thanks Jim,I'm 99.995% sure I'll be going this route on this one.PM me when you figure out a price,don't break it off in me now. :shock:
:lol:

geordi wrote:
When you hear hoofbeats, do you think Zebras or Horses?

:ROTFL:

Striped mule? :SOMBRERO:

What would you hear Raff? Moose or Buffalo? :pepper:




Since #3 and #4 did the same during cutout test,I just plan to check compression on #3.
I'll try to get it done this evening when wife gets home from work and takes over with the youngins.
Hey Jim,I pulled my pump wire out of the relay without looking to see where it went.
Isnt it the middle one?

_
_ <-------------this one?Think so but not posi.
l l l

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:23 pm 
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:shock:
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:ROTFL:

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