Towing Question

coldkj · **Posted:** Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:04 pm

I could use a little help from you guys that tow a lot. I'm going to flat tow my 1980 International Traveler from Anchorage to Boise, ca 3000 miles. I've previously towed a Toyota ski boat (ca 2800 lbs) on a surge-brake trailer. This time, I'm flat towing a two axle relatively long wheelbase vehicle. The total weight of the Traveler, once I get it loaded, will probably be around 6500lbs, and I will have another 800 extra lbs on the Liberty (roof top tent, ARB front & Rock Lizard rear bumpers, extra spare tire, dog, food, etc).

So my questions are:
1) Do I lock out overdrive? I've test-towed this combo here in Anchorage, it seems to go ok with overdrive engaged at about 50mph (my planned top speed)

2) Should I use full-time 4wd? The roads are clear of snow, ambient temp about 45F.

AT4 synthetic in the transmission, which was sadly reprogrammed before I added the Suncoast, Cummins lift pump in the tank, and an Inmotion stage II. The fan clutch was recently replaced. The wheels and tires are a little heavy, but the tread on the Green Diamonds is great.

I'm sure there are lots of opinions out there, and any advice you can give, supported by yours or anecdotal experience, plus the reasoning behind your advice, would be appreciated. This is one of my favorite road trips, and since it now turns into a full time move, I won't likely be doing it again anytime soon.

Wobbly · **Posted:** Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:28 pm

This doesn't answer your questions, but it may be useful. Here's a copy of a post in which I describe how I determined if our travel trailer was a safe load for the CRD:

"Here are the tow weights for our 2006 Jeep Liberty diesel with our
2007 Sunline T-1950 travel trailer. Hitch is a Hensley Arrow. Black, grey, and fresh water tanks about 3/4 full. Tank and 1/2 of propane. Jeep fuel tank about 10 gallons. Yamaha 2400 generator in back of Jeep. Two passengers. Full load of food, etc.

Weights were taken on an Oregon DOT highway scale using the 3 step procedure of Ron Gratz at
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/21776702/gotomsg/21781221.cfm#21781221 :

Weighing #1 -- TT attached and Weight Distribution Activated
Let Front Axle Load be "FA1" =2450
Let Rear Axle Load be "RA1" =3100
Let TT Axles Load be "TT1" =4500

Then, while in same position on scales, take
Weighing #2 -- TT attached and Weight Distribution Not Activated
Let Front Axle Load be "FA2" =2350
Let Rear Axle Load be "RA2" =3250
Let TT Axles Load be "TT2" = 4450

Then, drive off scales and drop TT. Return to scales and take
Weighing #3 -- TV only -- TT Not Attached
Let Front Axle Load be "FA3" =2650
Let Rear Axle Load be "RA3" =2300

From the above values, you can calculate:

TV weight = FA3 + RA3 =4950

Gross Combined Weight = (FA1 + RA1 + TT1) = 2450+3100+4500 = 10,050
{should also be equal to (FA2 + RA2 + TT2) if scale weights are correct}

TT Weight = Gross Combined Weight - TV Weight = 10,050 -4950 = 5100

Tongue Weight = (FA2 + RA2) - (FA3 + RA3) = (2350+3250) - (2650+2300) = 650

Load Transferred to TT Axles
when WD System in Activated = TT1 - TT2 =4500 -4450 =50

GCVW of the Jeep is 10,100 so the combo is very close to exceeding this value. Axle weight limits for the Jeep are not exceeded.

Considering that the export version of the Liberty diesel, which is called the Cherokee in Europe, has a tongue weight rating of 740# and a tow weight rating of 7400#, and has the same hitch receiver as the US version, this combination seems to be OK for weight.

The combination certainly handles well, probably in large part due to the Hensley hitch."

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:38 pm

Are we talkng about a iH Scout and by flat towing do you mean with a tow bar? if so I would be much more concerned with stopping the KJ with the iH pushing me then what gear to be in. Have you thought about one of those tow dollies that I think have surge brakes.

Back to your question. If I remember correctly OD on will put you in 3rd with the TC locked at 50. But it could be with it off. With the Sun coast you should be fine though. The CRD will tell you when it's happy :SOMBRERO:

Back to the iH and using a towbar. If it's a 4x4 any steering play and you could get the death wobble on it and be in trouble. A long time ago a friend and I using a tow bar towed a Willys pickup truck 4x4 30 miles and over 35 we got the DW bad...

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:50 pm

coldkj wrote:

I could use a little help from you guys that tow a lot. I'm going to flat tow my 1980 International Traveler from Anchorage to Boise, ca 3000 miles. I've previously towed a Toyota ski boat (ca 2800 lbs) on a surge-brake trailer. This time, I'm flat towing a two axle relatively long wheelbase vehicle. The total weight of the Traveler, once I get it loaded, will probably be around 6500lbs, and I will have another 800 extra lbs on the Liberty (roof top tent, ARB front & Rock Lizard rear bumpers, extra spare tire, dog, food, etc).

So my questions are:
1) Do I lock out overdrive? I've test-towed this combo here in Anchorage, it seems to go ok with overdrive engaged at about 50mph (my planned top speed)

2) Should I use full-time 4wd? The roads are clear of snow, ambient temp about 45F.

AT4 synthetic in the transmission, which was sadly reprogrammed before I added the Suncoast, Cummins lift pump in the tank, and an Inmotion stage II. The fan clutch was recently replaced. The wheels and tires are a little heavy, but the tread on the Green Diamonds is great.

I'm sure there are lots of opinions out there, and any advice you can give, supported by yours or anecdotal experience, plus the reasoning behind your advice, would be appreciated. This is one of my favorite road trips, and since it now turns into a full time move, I won't likely be doing it again anytime soon.

1) I tow in hilly terrain just west of the Appalachians, and 6,500 to 7,000 lbs. doesn't bother my CRD with overdrive ON while cruising. If you find that yours is hunting for a gear a lot of the time, flip OD off. Otherwise, leave it on.

2) If the roads are dry, I'd use 2WD only. If they are slippery Full-Time will be fine. Full-Time would likely be fine anyhow...I just don't use it when the roads are dry and it's obviously not needed.

With the ARB bumper, steel wheels, large tires, etc... you have added SIGNIFICANT weight to your Jeep. Yours will be straining a little more than mine. But I'd say you will still be OK if the weather is fair and the wind isn't whipping too bad.

coldkj · **Posted:** Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:35 am

Thanks for these responses. Joe, I have a tow bar mounted directly to the frame of the Scout. Braking, from 50 mph, does not seem to be an issue.

And the comment about the weight of the Liberty, prior to the towing, is spot on. The thing is heavy. The EVIC still indicates that while driving at 50 mph I'm getting about 24 mpg.

Any other comments/thoughts are welcome. I will try and post a few pics of the set-up pre launch, and then along the way. It's a beautiful drive.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:13 am

Do you have some sort of way of activating the brakes of the vehicle being flat-towed in concert with the Jeep brakes? If not, if you plan to try to stop 10K plus pounds with just the Jeep brakes you better have a big good luck charm. You are vastly exceeding ALL the towing guidelines. If you have an accident, I would be concerned about your insurance covering you.

DOC

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:23 am

DOC4444 wrote:

You are vastly exceeding ALL the towing guidelines. If you have an accident, I would be concerned about your insurance covering you.
DOC

That's exactly why I suggested a towing dolly with surge brakes :mrgreen:

Here's one.
http://www.towbartowdolly.com/?gclid=CP ... 5QodfiXX5A
Expensive but he could sell it at his destination and recoup some of the cost :2cents:

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:19 pm

Joe,

I saw that and it's certainly vastly better than a tow bar and NO brakes for the towed vehicle, but the KJ CRD is only rated to go to 5K lbs. He's apparently planning on going way over that.

DOC

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:16 pm

Doc.

Yes he's thinking in the 6500# range. But 6500 with brakes is miles better then 6500# without :dizzy:

I think the KJ is rated for 7000 in Europe. I'm not condoning it but a few have towed trailers in that range with brakes.

Joe

audiboy86 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:57 pm

Upgrade the pad and drilled and slotted rotors and i have stopped with atleast 6000lbs behind me without and issue. But also consider the amount of times you will have to brake if it is mostly highway brake fade won't be a big issue. If you are around town and constantly having to slow down and speed up it could become one. I am also worried about death wobble i know when towing a 4500lb Mercedes on a tow dolley I had to reload it twice to finally get it to stop. Could only imagine what it could of been like flat towing it. But yes i think the liberty can do it just think i would practice a few days around town to be 100% about everything.

coldkj · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:44 am

I've towed the thing around town, up and down the Seward Highway (straight highway, 15 miles worth) works well.

At the risk of sounding naive, what is the death wobble? :grim:

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:29 am

Death wobble is something that happens to mostly older 4x4 vehicles when because of a little wear on some component(s). You'll be driving along and both front wheels will start wobbling violently shaking the vehicle and you think your going to die. According to my daughter the whole vehicle shakes violently. That's how the name "Death Wobble" came about. I got my first XJ cheap because it did it often. I didn't even drive it just started looking for and replacing worn parts. When I got finished it was fine. My daughter had a 93 Grand Cherokee and one afternoon I got a phone call. It just happened to her on the interstate. She was very frantic and asked "what do I do"? My reply was to slow down! It would happen out of the blue at about 50 mph and it turned out to be a worn U joint on the front axel left side. Any number of seemingly small things can cause it including tires out of balance, alignment off or front axel u-joints.

What were worried about is what if it happens to your 6500# Scout being towed by your 4200# KJ :grim:

Joe

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:35 am

Tow dolly with surge brakes is much better than a tow bar. One weakness of towing your Scout Traveler with a tow bar is that the rear of the Liberty is not as solid and can do a little wiggling. When I was tow bar towing my VW Van I had to shut off the ESC until I got off the winding twisting back roads through the bluffs and onto the flat lands, once I got onto the interstate, it was OK. The ESC would over compensate and make towing with a tow bar squirmy to say the least.
Since the Scout has a solid rear axle, it will tow like a dream with a tow dolly equipped with surge brakes.
If you have gauges like Boost, EGT, and Trans Temp you may be able to go faster than 50 MPH if you have the surge brake dolly and watch the gauges. When you are climbing a steep grade, use your foot not the cruse control. When I have climbed a steep grade with cruse the EGT goes over 1400F with my foot it stays below 1250F. Cruse on flat lands is OK, never had a problem. Opening up you exhaust to 2 1/2" including the choke point at the Cat to muffler flange will drop your EGT and improve boost response.

jdorris · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:05 am

Death wobble when flat towing can create a situation similar to a trailer that is too heavy behind the axle. Essentially, it shakes, then wobbles, then sways, the owns the back end of the CRD. It isn't pretty. You should be able to rent a dolly with surge brakes from a trailer/moving truck place like Uhaul.

coldkj · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:54 pm

Good info all. Thanks. I actually looked up death wobble thx google and there are some sobering youtube vids.

The Scout is so beat up, it looks like it had the Death Wobble a decade ago. I'm keeping it for the drivetrain, combining it with another Traveler I have in CA. It's the Nissan Marine TurboDiesel, nice but slooooow rig.

Joking aside, I am going out to the weigh station here just north of Anchorage to get a weight and get a handle on things.

I have removed the Cat, the muffler is an Aeroturbine 2525, and I'm very light footed. I have seven days to make the trip of about 2900 miles to my new home in Boise.

A tow dolly is tough one way from AK. I'll check, though, as a trailer or dolly from UHaul might be the ticket. Last time I moved a vehicle from CA here, no one wanted to let a dolly across the border into Canada.

coldkj · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:04 pm

So UHaul has dolly's n auto transporter, but the wight combo of Jeep + Scout falls out of their computer. Could fib about what I'm towing, but that stuff goes on the contract, and might make the insurance issues a little sketchy.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:36 am

Every time I rent anything to tow from U-Haul, I have to tell them that I'm towing a 67 Beetle - it is the only way to make their nanny-computer happy.

You have to remember, their system and equipment is designed by lawyers who expect everyone to fill a trailer solid-full of cement and haul it around at 3 times the load capacity.
From a towing standpoint, I have done the flat-tow thing with my CRD, pulling a grand cherokee V8. That beast pushes on the back end like you wouldn't believe, because there isn't any tongue weight to stop it.

Stopping and turning at the same time can get fun without brakes on that GC, so any way that you can get brakes on the trailer (or scout) would be beneficial in every way. Look into a supplemental brake system or a "Brake Buddy" system like what Camping World sells - It might be a LOT cheaper than the U-haul trailer, and you can always sell it later for most of what you paid for it. I would avoid tow dollies like the plague - They have no brakes in most cases, and that is the ONE type of trailer that I wound up going backwards in the median with. Not something you ever want to try.

Your engine will be FINE hauling this weight, and tongue weight isn't a problem either. I pulled a 7.5x20 enclosed box fully loaded at 7000 lbs, with 1200 lbs of tongue weight without any problem. Did it 3 different times for well over 30 miles each time, at speeds up to 60mph. That trailer didn't have brakes connected to the CRD (but it does have them) so I wouldn't do that on a regular basis without the brakes, but the CRD handled it with ease. These really are amazingly strong tractors.

coldkj · **Posted:** Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:05 am

Thanks Geordi:

Funny about the 67 Beetle. A month ago I towed a 1975 Pacer behind the Scout that will get the Nissan Marine engine. Towed the Pacer from Elsinore, CA, to Santa Cruz, then to Grass Valley. Picked a 1970 Beetle to put behind the Scout because the UHaul computer wouldn't let me tow the Pacer.

I drove to the UHaul dealer in the Scout, with my daughter driving the Pacer. The UHaul guy took one look at the Pacer, then looked at me and said "A Pacer Beetle, eh? Seen a bunch of other VW's on the rental form, never seen one of these. Good luck!"

I towed the Pacer with a relatively worn out IH 345 and an automatic. Frankly, I'm not so worried about the CRD and the Scout. The distance is a little bit of a concern, but I've driven the AlCan 4 times. It's one of the great road trips of North America. Should be a good adventure. I'll post some pics.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:12 pm

coldkj wrote:

A tow dolly is tough one way from AK. I'll check, though, as a trailer or dolly from UHaul might be the ticket. Last time I moved a vehicle from CA here, no one wanted to let a dolly across the border into Canada.

I find that interesting since U-Haul uses a loophole in Canadian insurance laws and has all their rental fleet vehicles running Arizona insurance and plates, at least in British Columbia anyway.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:57 pm

coldkj wrote:

Thanks Geordi:

Funny about the 67 Beetle. A month ago I towed a 1975 Pacer behind the Scout that will get the Nissan Marine engine. Towed the Pacer from Elsinore, CA, to Santa Cruz, then to Grass Valley. Picked a 1970 Beetle to put behind the Scout because the UHaul computer wouldn't let me tow the Pacer.

I drove to the UHaul dealer in the Scout, with my daughter driving the Pacer. The UHaul guy took one look at the Pacer, then looked at me and said "A Pacer Beetle, eh? Seen a bunch of other VW's on the rental form, never seen one of these. Good luck!"

I towed the Pacer with a relatively worn out IH 345 and an automatic. Frankly, I'm not so worried about the CRD and the Scout. The distance is a little bit of a concern, but I've driven the AlCan 4 times. It's one of the great road trips of North America. Should be a good adventure. I'll post some pics.

That is funny stuff - So lots of other people use the VW Beetle trick to get past the U-haul computer too? hehehehhehehehhe And here I thought I was a smart cookie.

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